Whey hey ! Just got Torags hammers, not much in price but its just the drop that pleases me.

*rubs out question*

I have a Zammy book which is use, do you think the Guthix one increases drop rate or do you have it just for stat bonuses.

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Congrats on the Hammers, like you said not a lot of income but hey, better than a tinderbox.


I started using the book of balance because of the prayer bonus, I was trying to squeeze as much prayer out of each pot as I could.

When I go back next I'm gonna try the Zammy book for the spell bonus and see if killing faster makes is better than the prayer bonus. Not really a fair test because i'm higher level now, but the best I can do.

Here's the image of what I normally wear to Barrows and what is in my inventory other than pots and food, I think peeps can figure that out.

Also, on my first trip in I would carry 3 druid pouches so I would not lose any food to ghasts. Now with the bank in De Rot, I probably wont carry any food in, just stock up when I get there.




As you can see, it's a predominate mage setup with the Ahrims robe bottom and the black robe top. Why that set up? Beats me but I did better damage this way than using Ahrims top and bottom. Somebody else can figure out why, I just know this was better for me.

What I am wearing here is the mage setup and it's good against 5 of the 6 brothers. When fighting Ahrim I change 3 things, D-hide Body, D-hide legs and the Magic bow.

When I am down in the tunnels I am wearing the D-hide and using whip and obby shield.

The mage gloves, mystic boots, cape and farseer helm never change.

Obviously the money is for buying back food and pots at the store, you could use the bank but I doubt if I will, thats money that I consider well spent in the trade off for time.

I have never run out of runes when I started with that amount. I once when in with 500/2000 and i did run out of deaths so thats why I upped it.

So thats it, I wont say thats the best setup to wear, but it's what I like and it's worked well for me. 40+ drops and never dead.

Although I have been very close to it.

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Nice, this is helping out quite a bit. Im going to do a few runs as soon as I get 55 slayer for Slayer Dart

Zammy book gives +5 prayer bonus, I thought they all give the same... For me I dont bring the cash, noted pots or noted sharks, I the bank it only a bit further away and would save 3 invent spaces. I think I will bring a shield in future now, didnt really think of one for some reason, just relied on the zammy book, and I wondered why I was only doing 3 runs per go....

edit: Guthan plate 2 runs after hams

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Thanks a lot for the picture. I know that is the only outfit you have used. Right now I'm wearing Full Verac, and I take a super set, prayer pots and 1 super restore and crystal bow and I take black d hide top. I know mage is faster, but I don't really wanna do it. I want combat xp. So the quest I have, do you think torag, obby shield, and whip would be faster? If you don't know then, if anybody else who is reading this, if they could answer this. and right now because i'm wearing verac I wear ring of life, but do you think ring of wealth helps that much? Thanks again...

_-LordKiller05-_

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No I dont think it would be faster, mainly because you will lose Verac's special.

Also, I dont know about you but I think mage bow takes down ahrim faster - yes your max hit is like 3 less, but its faster and has a spec AND costs way less. Edit: Ive heard Jagex confirmed the ring of wealth works down there, and since it isnt likely you will die if you watch your prayer then I would use wealth.

Karil skirt straight after that guthan plate lol.

Thanks for getting me into this

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J@nr0k, always good to have another Barrower on board!

[hr]

Son Of Hades, it sounds like your having a BLAST and that’s what it's all about. Glad to hear your having good drops and with few runs between, juts keep that positive outlook when the random bug bites and you might go 30-40 runs without. Stay with it and all will be well in the universe.

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LordKiller05, I’m going to break your questions down 1 at a time and give you my opinion. I want you to realize that this is just my opinion.

Right now I'm wearing Full Verac - I think the answer as to whether Verac's is a good choice or not needs some more clarification from the other parts of your post, so we will revisit this again

and I take a super set, prayer pots and 1 super restore - So your taking supersets to help in your Melee attacks against the brothers, I can understand the thought process behind all of this, although if you can make your own, I would suggest the more super restores in place of the prayer pots. It restores more prayer per dose. (Something I learned not long ago thanks to Alpr )

and crystal bow - I used to use the Magic but then I found out how much more damage the crystal did than the Magic and I changed. Know what I found out? The magic short, because of it's special, still allowed me to kill Ahrim faster than the slightly slower but more powerful Crystal. I swapped back to the Magic Short.

and I take black d hide top. - Okay I understand this, you take off the Brassard to fight Ahrim with Range, that’s a 32 point swing in Range attack (remove the -2 Brassard penalty and add the 30 d-hide bonus)

I want combat xp. - Okay, this is the big one. How much Combat xp are you getting from just the brothers on each run? The Brothers are worth 3462 combat xp, or thereabouts, depending on your style of combat. You do realize that, you get more combat xp fighting 6 fire giants than the 6 brothers? It's also quicker and takes a LOT less resources (although the drops aren’t as good are they?

So now it comes down to resources used, so ,what is the length of your fights with each brother, or more to the point, how many pots of each kind are you using on a complete run? A good way to judge this would be to determine how many pots and food you are using against the 5 crypt brothers. That’s a more controllable figure than trying to determine what you have used against all 6 when some might go against the other creatures in the Barrows. While I understand you desire to melee, (I would rather Melee than Mage or Range any day of the week ) you should (don't have to, but should) balance that desire out with speed and resources.

Do a test, make five runs like you are currently doing and track the following things. Only track these things against the 5 brothers in the crypt, before you go in the tunnels.

1) total time, from the time you dig into the first crypt until you climb out after the fifth kill.
2) Food used, for the same period of time as in point 1.
3) all pots used, track it down to the dose used. If you use 3 4 dose pots for prayer then you used 12 doses, track it like that makes it easier to compare data sets.

Now do another 5 sets starting from the same stat point as you did in your first five, but this time go as a mage and track the same data.

Now I don’t know for sure because I have never spent a lot of time using melee on the brothers but I have to believe that:

1) It takes you longer to melee than mage
2) Because it takes longer you take more damage and you use more pots
3) More damage means more food used

I try to play the game with a somewhat practical approach. I don’t spend money I don’t have too. (But then my goal is to get all stats to 99 on this account) Because of that I am always looking at return on investment. I mage them because, as a group, the brothers are weak against magic so it is the quickest way to kill them. I use magic dart not because it's the most powerful spell, cause it's not, but because it is effective and it's basically free to use with the replenishment of the chest runes.

While i like the idea of going toe to toe with this bad ass family, it's just not practical from my point of view.


So the quest I have, do you think torag, obby shield, and whip would be faster? If you don't know then, if anybody else who is reading this, if they could answer this. - I couldn't answer this accurately because I have never used verac's against them but I believe that while the whip has a slight advantage over the flail in doing damage and is faster, the big factor here is the bonus amount, or lack of. Verac's provides a bonus of 82 to attack using the flail, while Torags adds an attack bonus of 0 while using the whip. Combine that with Verac's set ability to hit through armor plus the prayer bonus and I think you are going the right way now. While Torags has better defense, it really doesn’t matter if your using prayer.

and right now because I’m wearing verac I wear ring of life, but do you think ring of wealth helps that much? Thanks again... I would ask how many times the ring of life has saved you? the reality as I see it is that you should not be getting hit with your prayer that you get so low that the ring of life kicks in. I don't know what your stats are so you would have to let me know how often you get down in the low part of your hit points. I think ROW is a better choice myself. and yes, I think that the ROW helps. But because it's random there is no way to know for sure without taking a HUGE sample of runs either way and comparing them. Want to volunteer?.

So if you didn't get it out of there, then yes, if you must melee the Brothers, then I think Verac's is a good way to go.

Great discussion I enjoyed thinking these questions through and I hope somebody else digs deep into the grey matter and can offer some couterpoints because I am no expert, I just play the game and offer my insights. Lets here more on what people think about LordKiller05's questions!!!

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Thanks so much for your advice. Sorry it wasn't that clear. I was typing fast, cause I had to go. One of the main reasons I was actually doing melee. Which I forgot to mention. Was because I thought I would make more money. Since fixing my armor dosen't cost that much and the deaths and minds runes are pretty nice money, considering that you get quite a bit. But I'm guessing since you kill them a lot faster, that you get borrows faster. So in the long run, I'm guessing mage would be better. Ring of life has only saved me once. The reason I mostly use ring of life because I take chances a lot. Which is stupid, cuase I have almost lost guthan, fury and like 3m worth of other stuff and had like 2 hps. lol But anyways. As long as I'm more careful, I guess I will start using Ring of Wealth. Oh ya and another reason while I was doing combat which was not the main reason, the main reason was the runes. But I wanted to get 100 combat, which I just about have. I have to go eat, so I might have left a few things out. But last thing is. My stats are... 81 att, 80 str and def, 82 hps, 75 range and 76 mage and 57 prayer. Thanks so much for all the help!!

_-LordKiller05-_

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Your doing a good job with the stats you have and congrats on the almost 100 combat.

If you want some advice, take some time out and kill dragons, Greens would be easiest but I hate losing the bones to pk'ers so Blues might be best. I kill the ones at the Ogre city because they are normally free as opposed to the ones in the Taverly dungeon. You know if you Ectofunctus 2000 Dragon Bones you would be level 70 Prayer? Just 500 bones would take you up 5 prayer levels to 62 Prayer. The higher your prayer level, the longer each dose lasts. Something to think about.

The key to Barrows is your prayer, you always must know where you are at and understand how the prayer level jumps. If you watch your prayer level you can tell on each 'drain' about where your going to be after the next. For example lets say my prayer is sitting at 42 and I am watching it count down 41-40-39-drain-29 -28-27-26-25-drain-15

I know now that I have to either kill the brother or drink a dose of restore before I get to 10 prayer points otherwise I will be at 0 on the next drain. If you understand how your prayer drains, it is pretty easy to figure out when the next drain will take place and how many points you will have after it takes place. This is why I don’t think you need a ring of life, Prayer manipulation is the single most important factor in the Barrows. Master Prayer usage and the Barrows is very easy. I haven’t been down to the Barrows in many weeks, but I understand from the hidden updates topic that Drain is now 14 instead of 10, I haven’t confirmed this, maybe you guys that are going now can let me know if that is true or not.

I understand the risk taking, you just have to use your best judgment on that because we all do it. For example, when I am down in the tunnel and I am fighting Karil or Guthan and I have them at low-low hp and I am running out of prayer, I most likely will not re-pot up, I will be ready to pot, but wont unless they hit me hard a few times and I still haven’t killed them. Dhorak on the other hand, I don’t run out of prayer on ever, better to waste a prayer dose than get hit a 60 or worse.

Meleeing will not make you more money directly, although I understand what you are thinking, that by melee you wont be using up runes so you can make money by selling them. A good thought, but you need to do the trade off analysis and see if it costing you more in pots and food than you are making in runes. In addition, if that is your goal you need to understand how to manipulate your rune drops, While some of the data I collected and shared in the early part of the post does address this, you would be well advised to start collecting your own data to verify my results, plus you can add your findings to either support or denounce my results. Because of the nature of the Barrows, any results I gather, I post with some misgivings. There are so many factors that come into play in the Barrows, that to do a solid study would literally take months and months of data collection and thousands of runs to use for a database. Even then it is going to be based on some assumptions unless we have an inside track on exactly how the Barrows formula works and I really don't think Jagax will share that with us.

As for the data, I'm working on it but it takes time.

And again, there are MUCH faster ways to raise Combat than the Barrows.

But none are as much fun. At least, not IMHO.

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Wow thanks so much man, your a really good communicator. Its very easy to understand what you are saying, so thanks so much !Good luck on getting your data. and thanks again for all the help!

_-LordKiller05-_

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Thanks for the pics but I generally change a few things, take rune legts instead of dragonhide due to 66 defence in the tunnels can hurt. I also take un-noted ony so no cash. On top of that I wear fullmystic and use fire blast. I have rotten luck, over 50 runs no item while I see Son Of Hades up there getting torag hams, guth plate and karil skirt within 30 runs. For now I've decided to train defence to 70 before going for more runs. Thanks for the info

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whoa man..thats a lotta study..real nice results..how long did it take? im not sure if u sed?u prolly did in the first sentence lol..

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"so i hustle, hustle"

NO, yeoldhustler, I don’t think I ever did say.

You ready to hear my tale of woe? Of Death and Betrayal? Will you listen to my story of fear and frustration? Well, if you Don’t want to hear about all that stuff you’re in the right place, because this is a pretty plain and boring story.

Barrows came out in June I think of last year. I went within the first few weeks to check it out but it was crazy with people so I went back to training,…umm, something. Don’t remember what.

Then in early September I went back and I did about 20, maybe 25 runs.

Now, a little background. I have the type of personality that likes to know what the reward for risk is going to be before going into any given scenario if at all possible. That’s why you wont ever see a new quest guide out of me. I think that what some of the guys like Alpr, A5chow, Muscular Ape and many, many others do is great around new guide creations. I can never tell those guys how much I appreciate them taking the first bullet for the team like they do, and then creating something that the rest of us can learn from, that streamlines the endevour to a very smooth and seamless event. Kudos to all of those guys and everybody that helps them.

So I hardly ever go to a newly released update, for example I have not been to Pest Control yet. I will at some point when I have the time, but you know what? I’ll read everything I can find on the Village before I go.

Anyway, back on track, (If you hadn’t noticed I have a tendency to wander when I let my thoughts hit the paper ), So because I wanted to know what the reward structure was, I started looking around to find something about it.

Know what I found?

Squat!

Nothing.

That’s not to say their were not some great guides out there, because there are and an exceptional one here on the Village, but none of them went into what you could really expect to see in the rewards for treasure on a run by run basis, and that’s what I was looking for. I knew the Barrow Armor drops are well worth having, but what about the rest? I wasn’t rich then, didn’t even have 1 mil in the bank, so funding runs to the Barrow was a big deal. I wanted to know if it was worth it.

So, with that in mind I sat out in, I think October, to see what I could learn by tracking all the data I could. I did 100 random kill runs and gathered the data. I took a look and you know what I thought? Wow, that was worthless. I can’t make any pattern out of this when I am adding my own random factor!! I realized that a bunch of runs with random kill numbers wasn’t going to give me the data I needed. That’s when I decided I needed to put some serious time into it and gather good data. I honestly thought I was going to have to struggle through because of the cost that I anticipated would be associated with the pots and food.. But that’s when I also made the conscious decision that I would not buy either. When I ran out of prayer or food I would take the time to grow more Ranarr’s and fish more swordies. So, among training other skills I did just that, farmed and fished building up a stockpile. I knew this would take a lot longer, but I also knew it was the best decision I could make based on cost factors.

In December of 05, I returned to the Barrows and started my next leg of the journey, the next 500 runs. You can see how my approach changed from the first 100 to the next several hundred runs. Set kill amounts to see what would happen, what I would get in the chest. And lo and behold, patterns started to emerge. Slowly I will admit, but as I watched the data accumulate I started to see some trends in the chest, especially associated with the gold amount and the rune amounts depending on what I was doing.

Hmm, more runes less gold?

And it happened every time. Low runes, high gold, high runes low gold.

That told me somewhere, somehow there is a calculation going on behind the scenes. I don’t understand it and I doubt that I every will to be honest, there are too many random factors to develop enough data to get this right, although I will continue to gather the data and throw it into my spreadsheet and push, pull it and spin it in circles in an attempt to get a formula to work, I just don’t think it will happen.

I finished gathering the last of the 600 runs data in early March as I recall and haven’t been back to gather more data yet. That will happen soon. I planted my last snapdragon seed last night which will give me a little over 600 super restores and I need to fish a few hundred more sharks, and then I’ll go back for another 400 runs. And then some more, and some more.

So, the short answer to your question is that I spent about 6 months gathering the data on those 600 runs.

Those 600 runs reflect about 200 hours of game time in the Barrows

Man, I cant wait to get back.

Won’t happen this weekend, some event at 2:00 CST Saturday has been earmarked on my Calendar. As a matter of fact, that’s where some of the proceeds from these Barrow runs will change hands.

Hope to see you all there!!

And then the Barrows.

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k..thanks for that reply..6 months?good god!

so..this may take a lot of calculation..but have u ever thought of dividing the amount of money u made from the barrows minus the sharks/gold spent at store/pots etc..divided by the total hours u played it for? that wud tell how much exactly u made an hr..(i hope u do..it wud b cool to know)

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"so i hustle, hustle"

Raruis would be able to give you a much more precise answer, but for me (and we do things slightly differently) I made between 50-250k an hour without brother drops/half kleys/ d med, if each run is 20 mins, which it normally is. (never timed)

Obviously brother drops would affect that, the guthan plate and the 3 other small drops ive had would have brought my average to say 300k+ an hour. Again I have no evidance of this and its just a random guess how many runs I have done.

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Son of Hades, your 'Educated' guess is right on the mark.
You have a good feel for the prices.


Obviously this is a difficult question to answer for several factors.

1) I didn't sell everything off, as a matter of fact I sold very little of it off.
2) What price do I use? The price of a D medium when I started was 1.1 mil, now it's 700k. All items in Runescape fluctuate and are effected like that.

So, here's what I will do. I will give you a price based on the assumption that I sold everything I gained in the Barrows. I will use the midrange price on items based on a priceguide from Feb 10 of this year. Example the price guide I have says Death Runes in mid Feb sold from 400-625 gold each. I will use the midrange of 500 gp each. All other items will be calculated the same way.

So with that, my potential total Barrow income for those 600 runs was $72,681,292.00
Divided by the 200 hours I spent in the Barrows (This dosn't count the time I spent farming Rannars or fishing/cooking however)

So the answer to your question with the above qualifiers is = $363,406.50 per hour.

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Note the built-in notepad there. I've been recording all my runs, looking to find some sort of formula or pattern(like you mention). Hopefully some day, it might be cracked, and we'll be able to get really high rates on barrows items o.O

If ya'd like to help out, record everything you kill down there in order, please, and the loot ya get.

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Not a problem,

I don't track the order I kill things in, I have tracked how many of what type on each run. At the end I was just tracking number of kills. But thats easy enough to change so when I get back to the Barrows i'll track the order as well.

Everything else is good to go. I have the data on every one of the 600 runs I mention here in this post an Excel file.

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Boa, your idea on the order you kill is a bit intresting. I myself ALWAYS kill all 6 bros before killing anything else, and I have pretty good luck at the Barrows. Maybe killing all six brothers before anything else effects the chances?

There are a lot of diffrent variables that could factor in to this 'formula', I hope you're up for a hard run, Rarius!

-Goten

The order I kill the brothers in dosn't change, - I complete a run, come out of the Barrow and Kill Torag, Ahrim. Then pot up and Kill Dharok, Guthan, Verac and Karil. The only change is the tunnel brother goes into the last kill spot.




This sir, qulafies as the understatement of the year.

Seriously, always happy to include other players data (hint), so if you can think of any other players that spend time in the Barrows (hint), you might consider letting them know that we are doing data collection, and if they want they could send in or, post a copy of what they have done.


I'll send my data to anyone who wants it, just realize that it is set up in an excel spreadsheet and has active macros. Pretty simple stuff, but that way all I have to do is type in how many I had of each trackable item before my very first runt, update it before I open the chest, and then type in my new amounts after the chest has been opened. The formula figures the differance, copys and paste's the data to the empty row that coresponds to that run number, then cuts the after amounts and puts them into the before amounts. The next run the only thing that I have to update is minds and deaths (and gold if I go the the general store) before I open the chest.

And then do it again. And Again and hopefully take the time to record some Brother drops amoung all that.

Personally, I figure it will take 5000 plus runs of collecting, after which we should have enough data to build a working model that we have some confidence in. That model, however, may never answer all the questions, but instead, it may just reinforce the point that some factors are completly random. Which we already know.

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