Can't log in to chat

Eadwulf · **Posted:** November 23rd, 2012, 4:09 am

For the past week I've been periodically having a problem where I try to log in to chat, where it just sits there for a couple minutes before finally telling me it can't access the login server or some bollocks. It seems to have reached an apex because now I can't get in at all.

Tanksandguns · **Posted:** November 23rd, 2012, 2:53 pm

I get this when trying to get in to chat today. It was fine yesterday...

Warning- Large Image.

Hidden:

Saten Ruiko · **Posted:** November 23rd, 2012, 9:43 pm

I don't know what Tanks's deal is, but Ead, I fixed the problem. It was a firewall issue; the same thing that happens every time the server is restarted.

I thought the thing I added the other day would fix that problem when the server restarted, though that hasn't been tested. My guess is our provider did something with the firewall settings that didn't involve a server reboot.

In any case it's fixed now.

Ventrue · **Posted:** November 27th, 2012, 11:22 pm

Would anyone mind if I rewrote chat using HTML5? I think it'd give people fewer problems.

Jackstick · **Posted:** November 27th, 2012, 11:28 pm

That's an interesting idea. Would it have all the same features as our current chatroom? Modchat, smilies, PM windows, mod commands, chat logs, name colors, themes, etc.?

Saten Ruiko · **Posted:** November 27th, 2012, 11:31 pm

Please correct me if I'm wrong...but our server randomly resetting our firewall isn't something that can be solved by changing chats, is it?

(Also what other problems are you referring to?)

Ventrue · **Posted:** November 27th, 2012, 11:52 pm

Jackstick wrote:

That's an interesting idea. Would it have all the same features as our current chatroom? Modchat, smilies, PM windows, mod commands, chat logs, name colors, themes, etc.?

None of those should be a problem. There can be smooth animations, too. If you want, I can show you an example of a chat I made while working on a HTML5 Magic: The Gathering client. If that's desired, I'll edit the link in once it's running (I took it down for a few reasons).

Sayaka wrote:

Please correct me if I'm wrong...but our server randomly resetting our firewall isn't something that can be solved by changing chats, is it?
(Also what other problems are you referring to?)

It depends on the chat technologies involved. You can throw an AJAX long-poll/Comet/Push system up and it'll run on port 80... Websockets can be utilized as well, though that would hit the firewall. Can we not modify the firewall's startup? Is this 99% of the reason why people aren't able to use the chat?

Java is/has always been a problem for me in terms of using the chat. Users seem to complain about it breaking in clan chat, too. Then again, not many people use it.

Market Man6 · **Posted:** November 28th, 2012, 6:43 am

I would love HTML5 chat!
I only love the idea because blackberry10 browser can handle it. So I'm thinking I can chat from my next phone

When I get a new phone in Jan or Feb, I'd like to test my idea on your old Magic chat(if our chat hasn't been redone by then)

Saten Ruiko · **Posted:** November 28th, 2012, 10:04 pm

...I would also like a chat from which I can my iPhone to log in...

Jackstick · **Posted:** November 28th, 2012, 10:21 pm

I'm moving this post to Village Hall so we can get some more opinions and ideas for this potential project, and so we can get a clearer idea of the sort of bugs our users are experiencing with the javachat.

Saten Ruiko · **Posted:** November 29th, 2012, 10:44 pm

Znath mentioned he couldn't get Chat to load at all or something. Could someone that uses the clan chat request that he posts his problem here? Is it the same as Tanks?

@Everyone else: Just wait until the loading says it's finished; that seems to be the main problem for some reason (it's slow.)

Demon · **Posted:** November 30th, 2012, 6:21 am

Glode has stated we will not be using a non-java chat for the simple reason of unnecessary calls to the server. Polling requires a constant load on the server which increases exponentially as more users log in. There are technologies coming in HTML5 which would allow for the same browser-server relationships java and the server share, but the technology is so far from wide support it will not be feasible for several years at least.

This is the reason we have not reverted to a ajax/php based chat.

Saten Ruiko · **Posted:** December 1st, 2012, 4:37 pm

Demon wrote:

Glode has stated we will not be using a non-java chat for the simple reason of unnecessary calls to the server. Polling requires a constant load on the server which increases exponentially as more users log in. There are technologies coming in HTML5 which would allow for the same browser-server relationships java and the server share, but the technology is so far from wide support it will not be feasible for several years at least.

This is the reason we have not reverted to a ajax/php based chat.

That's why we'd have to use some Push framework instead.

Also, FlashChat operated on the same principles you mention (constant polling) and we had it for years. We even had 20+ people in Chat on many occasions during FlashChat's reign.

Arya · **Posted:** December 3rd, 2012, 11:44 am

It's never let me log in :s

Demon · **Posted:** December 3rd, 2012, 10:28 pm

Arya wrote:

It's never let me log in :s

Have you tried deleting all browser cookies and ensuring you have an up-to-date version of Java?

Demon · **Posted:** December 3rd, 2012, 10:32 pm

Sayaka wrote:

That's why we'd have to use some Push framework instead.

Also, FlashChat operated on the same principles you mention (constant polling) and we had it for years. We even had 20+ people in Chat on many occasions during FlashChat's reign.

Hopefully Glode doesn't mind my using his messages to express his opinion on the matter as he is and has been our senior networking (and everything else) specialist..

Glodenox wrote:

In terms of communication technology, using Java or Flash has been a much better choice over JavaScript for years. Only recently has JavaScript started to become slightly more interesting since some browsers are now supporting a feature called "Web Sockets" (more on that at the end).

In the past, when you wanted to have a chat application, you needed to perform a frequent polling. Basically, sending a request to the server each 2 or so seconds, asking for new messages. Scale that to 20 people, and you've got 10 requests per second just for a chat. Commonly, such chats are also powered by a database and don't use any caching, so add 10 requests per second to the database as well. But admittedly, a well-written application could limit the resources required at that point. Still, it's fairly inefficient.

In comparison, a Java (or Flash) solution provided us with a completely different approach: the client would connect and open a connection with the server without closing it. That allows the server to be in control, by pushing out messages to all the clients as they arrive, without requiring those clients to ask for updates all the time. A database connection is no longer needed either, unless perhaps for logging purposes, as the messages are sent immediately to the clients when they arrive. Each of those clients will have a queue of messages on the server, so nothing should get lost. All this however demands more control over a server, as you can't run such applications on a lot of hosting solutions.

So basically, push systems > pull systems. As for Web Sockets: they provide practically the same thing as what Flash applications and Java applets do. A socket to open a connection with the server and receive messages pushed by the server without polling. Sadly enough, Web Sockets aren't really ready for common use yet as their support is still a bit spotty at the moment. I'd personally much prefer to use JavaScript as well over a Java applet or a Flash application. It's just not yet feasible.

Note: the FlashChat we have uses the pulling system. Therefore, it's not a good alternative.

He finished with this comment:

Glodenox wrote:

Seriously. Forget about pinging systems (or pulling systems, that's the same). It's not efficient, doesn't scale well and I'd even say that sort of systems belong to the 90's. Even if the database isn't accessed as often, it means that 4 people in the chat already double the average amount of connections that our server has to handle. Pushing systems, where the server notifies the client of an update, are much more efficient, have almost zero delay and don't result in a bunch of extra requests each time. HTTP is not designed with polling systems in mind. SPDY, an alternative protocol designed by Google, however has a feature that allows the connection to remain open. But SPDY will probably never be supported by Microsoft, and it still results in polling - which is really unnecessary for a chat.

Saten Ruiko · **Posted:** December 3rd, 2012, 11:08 pm

Demon wrote:

[Demon's post quoting Glod]

Yeah I know, I agree entirely, that's why I suggested something with push. The Observer pattern at it's best, right there!

I went to a talk on SPDY by someone from Google a couple of months ago--it was really interesting! I can find the slides if you're interested in learning more on that. It's already in use on a lot of major web sites.

Finally, no, FlashChat is not a good alternative, but at least it was relatively good to us. (Additionally, it polled every 3 seconds, not 2, and if you set yourself to Away that was bumped up to 15. I wrote an additional mode once that set it to 9. Not saying there's a gigantic difference there, but it's something that the creators were definitely keeping in mind when they wrote the server.) My preferred solution would be to find out why people are not able to open JavaChat's page, and find out why it's suddenly taking 30 seconds to load (even on success) instead of 1.

Demon · **Posted:** December 4th, 2012, 2:54 pm

Has this problem been persisting from before the homepage change?

Saten Ruiko · **Posted:** December 4th, 2012, 7:16 pm

I'm starting to hear reports that the "Remember me" checkbox on the forums side is failing to remember people. Could that be related to the homepage change?

Also, Znath came into Chat the other day and said his Java plugin was disabled so that's why Chat wasn't appearing. Is that what's up with you, perhaps, Tanks?

Can't log in to chat

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