Well, that's brilliant. I have a damn ace in the hole and it's gone night zero. God dammit.

I am the Vindicator. Barring being the Defendant, I can end the trial phase by shooting the Judge, Defendant, Plantiff, or Lawyer. One shot during the day Vigilante to hope I hit someone I feel is a Mafia on the wrong side of the courtroom.

Feels nice to finally have a role I can make some damn use of, and get framed night zero for it.

If we don't want anyone on trial, then it's safest to just pick anyone out of a hat, right? Nominate: PenguinGuy. Because why the not.

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Goten is dead!

Nominate:PenguinGuy

Also I don't buy Kikori's claim for a second. If he is telling the truth that makes 6 Power Roles out of 9 players, if we don't have a Godfather. Assuming two Mafia that makes only 2 Normal Villagers. I don't see Top making a varient with so few Villager Roles.

Framer
Prosecutor
Vindicator
Framer
Defense Attorney
President
Mafia Goon

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I can't Math well...

6 Roles + 2 Mafia = 1 Normal Villager

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Two framers? o.O

Also, I'm not buying these claims just yet... I think that if Scar dies and turns out to be telling the truth, we have nailed one mafia in Kikori and are well on our way to winning. Doing nothing today proves absolutely nothing, just gives the mafia another free kill like they had night zero.

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Thank You For The Sig Stalesoul!

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As I said. We MUST send someone to trial. It will generate much needed info, about several people.

If kikori is scum, he must tread very carefully during the trial phase. Well, either way he has to tread carefully. But I AM NOT a fan of deadlocking the votes and stopping the trial phase. I am in tentative agreement that Scar should not go to trial based on his claim. But someone should. And it shouldn't be Penguinguy. It's also worth noting that a townie should not want to deadlock the votes, either. The trial is our lynch, essentially. And in any case, if everyone fails to convince the judge of the accused's guilt, he can always declare that person innocent and play it safe.

Also recall that the first voter is the plaintiff, and in kikori's case against penguin...does this mean Scar would be plaintiff? Broken game, Top.

At any rate, the role of the lawyer is pertinent as well. Is the Lawyer *required* to defend his person, even if he thinks they are guilty? Would a mafia defendant choose his mafia cohort to defend him, or a town-aligned person? There are many layers to this game.

Also it is key to remember that although non-pseudo roles can't talk during the phase, we *can* vote guilty or not guilty. But this doesn't affect anything. And the vote can be changed.

I am also appalled that people are throwing their votes so carelessly, when you get one per pre-trial phase. Doc, at least, should know better. And so should Kikori. One of them is scum, and it seems Kikori is the likely suspect given Scar's claim.

It's also worth noting that Kikori is plenty smart enough to come up with a fake role for a variant like this. It's also possible that he is scum but is not entirely lying, he could perhaps be a vengeful mafioso. But that would terribly unbalance the game, and I don't believe Top would do that. If he is indeed town aligned, and is vengeful, he ought to prove it as soon as it makes sense.

In short, I'd like more info to go on, but I will cast a vote for Penguin if I need to if it comes down to it.

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I know exactly what I am doing. My actions caused Scar to come forth immediately with the name of Kikori. One of the two is mafia, and since we can't get rid of Kikori today, and Scar isn't the actual detective, putting him on trial would get results more than anything else we have right now.

I would request complete details of Scar's role. If he dies, does the detective give information to someone else, or get it himself, or is his role made redundant? I think it is quite convenient of him to immediately roleclaim a role that isn't detective yet is apparently important enough that we waste our day/kill off someone else, give the mafia an extra kill, and then throw Kikori under the bus the next day as a bonus.

The way it stands, in my eyes, one of the two is mafia. If we put Scar on trial, and Kikori knows himself that he is not mafia, he will know that Scar is lying and kill him. If Kikori is the mafia, he will kill him to reduce numbers, having already been given up, whilst protecting the other mafia, or he will leave him alone and we will get even more information, save Scar, and still kill off Kikori.

The one thing I'm not buying is that there are also framer roles, right now it just seems too convenient, so this is why I am sticking by my actions so far, and would hope that you see that I haven't made a rookie error in what I have done Lander. I don't do careless. Even last game my playstyle wasn't careless, it just backfired as the mafia killed me off night one.

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I'm smart enough to make up a role, sure. Sadly, I'm not smart enough to make up the frustration behind losing my chance to one-shot the Mafia AGAIN. I've been two for two on one-shot kills, I'd like to have saved up for a third. For proving that, I have to shut up and shoot someone in a trial. There's nobody I WANT to shoot yet except the Framer, and I've got no clue who it is. Even with instinct about who may be Mafia, the actual tag of Framer just isn't assured.

I don't know what you wanted me to do with my vote, to be honest. Scar is potentially an important role; I heavily doubt he'd invent an investigative role just to pile pressure onto me day one like that. I'm inclined to believe his claim, so I don't even want him involved in the case just in case a Mafia does get to kill off someone in a seat of power. So yeah, I'm gonna pick someone to try to even the votes out to take the pressure off Scar. You're right in that it was probably RUSHED, but given we have four of eight capable nominators still free, it was not a day-costing mistake. I'm not that dumb when frustrated about my position. <3



The complexity of the worst case scenario rivals Paidea's plan for Tru Ninja during the Fire & Ice Mafia you hosted, but it sadly can't be denied.
What sucks is, if he flips town, I know no logic can save me. I'd have to be investigated twice and come up townie night one in order to stand a chance of surviving night 0's debacle.

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Goten is dead!

My PM said I was the Prosecutor who had hired someone from the local Police Department to investigate people. I get his results each night, but I don't get told who he is. I also have no clue if he gets the results as well or if it's exclusive to me.

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Sounds like an Edgeworth-Gumshoe relationship, where Edgeworth doesn't know it's Gumshoe doing the Gumshoe'ing.
The fact that Scar doesn't know who Gumshoe is, is... unsettling might be the word. But aside from that, as far as I know, the system fits.

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Goten is dead!

I am going to try to be rational despite the fact I have been randomly chosen to be put on trial by someone who is possibly a mafia judge. I doubt that Scar is Mafia, seeing as he would have little reason to fake claim this early. He was under very little pressure, and the person he came out against is currently unlynchable.

We are left with three options. 1) Scar is like he said, and Kikori is Mafia. 2) Scar is like he said, and Kikori is not Mafia. 3) Scar has lied, Kikori is not Mafia. Everyone seems to be suggesting deadlock, so this is how those will turn out under all circumstances.

Kikori is Mafia: We deadlock today. A random person dies tonight. Tomorrow we lynch Kikori and he flips Mafia.

Kikori is not Mafia: There are three reasons this could have happened. Scar is lying (possible, but not even Kikori thinks this is the case), Kikori was framed, and one I'm surprised no one has brought up, the detective is insane. A lot of this argument hinges on the assumption that the detective is sane, which is just that, an assumption. Setting aside the fact I'm not sure how a sanity check would work in a situation like this, if that is the case and we deadlock today, the mafia will simply kill Kikori in the night, and Scar will come forth with a insane sanity check. That will leave us with an outed detective, and only a dead PR to show for it. If Kikori was in fact framed and our Detective is sane, we deadlock, the detective will come forth with a sane sanity check, and Kikori will be lynched unless he can prove himself. This is also how it would play out if Scar was lying and is Mafia.

As you see, we have two unfavorable cases and one favorable case. We can Lynch Kikori as Mafia D2, find him dead D2, or lynch him as his claimed PR.

Now here is the outcomes if we nominate someone:

Kikori is Mafia: If we nominate a Mafia member, Kikori will not lynch them. If we nominate a villager, Kikori will lynch them since he is dead anyway, or will not lynch them in a WIFOM gambit.

Kikori is Framed: We nominate someone we believe to be mafia. If kikori thinks they are mafia he will execute them, if they flip mafia it practically clears him, if they flip town heavy suspicion is put on Kikori. He can also use his one-shot, which will confirm him with a mafia kill or town kill. If he kills a Mafia or uses his one-shot he will likely be killed since he is cleared, if he executes a townie he will gain heavy suspicion, and if he No-Lynches, that person will gain heavy suspicion. (This is also an outcome if Scar is lying)

Kikori is Not Mafia, Detective is Insane: Today is the same as before. "We nominate someone we believe to be mafia. If kikori thinks they are mafia he will execute them, if they flip mafia it practically clears him, if they flip town heavy suspicion is put on Kikori. He can also use his one-shot, which will confirm him with a mafia kill or town kill. " The difference is that he will be killed under all circumstances, since the detective's sanity report will clear him. (This is also an outcome if Scar is lying)

We are left with more cases. If Kikori No Lynches, he and the not lynched are under heavy scrutiny. If he lynches a Mafia or uses his One-Shot he is cleared and will likely be killed N1. If he lynches a Villager, he will be under heavy scrutiny D2, or dead.

Now to organize and show side by side for comparison of each individual case.

Kikori is Mafia:

Deadlock: No one lynched D1, Random dead N1, Kikori likely lynched Mafia D2.
Nomination: Villager lynched or someone gains WIFOM suspcion D1, Random dead N1, Kikori likely lynched Mafia D2.

Kikori is Framed:

Deadlock: No one lynched D1, Random dead N1, Kikori likely lynched as Vindicator D2 with sane sanity report.
Nomination V1: Mafia lynched or one-Shot, Villager one-shot clears Kikori. Kikori likely killed N1, start D2 with sane sanity report.
Nomination V2: No lynch or Villager lynch. Random Killed N1. Kikori likely Lynched as Vindicator D2.

Kikori is Not Mafia, Detective Insane:

Deadlock: No one lynched D1, Kikori likely killed N1, start D2 with insane sanity report.
Nomination: Mafia lynched or one-Shot, Villager one-shot or lynched, or no lynched. Kikori likely killed N1, start D2 with insane sanity report.

For reference, the possibility that Scar is lying plays out the same as if Kikori is framed or Detective is Insane. Once Kikori is dead, Scar has to prove Kikori was framed, or he would backtrack and say the detective is insane.

In each case, Nomination has the possibility of lynching a mafia or gaining information, at the risk of killing a villager. We should discuss which we think is better. Also, if there are any flaws in the logic (I don't think there are), point them out so we can adjust this accordingly.

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So...seeing Scar's claim, I'm guessing that he's linked to the detective in such a way that if either Scar or the detective dies, the remaining one is basically rendered into a vanilla villager? Either way, I'm inclined to believe him...If it's a false claim, it seems that's a hell of a lot of risk for absolutely no reason at this point in the game.

I'm also willing to believe the result he received at this point. This would mean Kikori is an unlynchable mafia for today, nothing to be done about that until tomorrow unless there's some manner of vigilante.

In the interest of continuing the day before we end up missing another person from nightkills, Nominate: PenguinGuy. I probably won't get a chance to check the topic again before phase change, so yeah. I'd rather run the risk of putting up an unknown for trial than put up a believed half-detective. Either way it goes, we'll obtain more information from having a trial phase.

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Epic sprite by Goatbro
Penguinguy told me what a signshur was.

So...instead of going with a deadlock where we lose one person to the Mafia, you decide to nominate someone and give them enough votes to go to trial with a suspected Mafia Judge?

You do realize that if Kikori is indeed Mafia like the Detective Report claimed that you just essentially handed them 2 free kills right? Unless someone else wants to even things up and vote for me again that is.

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A variable detective is possible, but I for the life of me can not picture Top adding it in this small and potentially destructive of a game. If there are three mafia, it pretty much turns the game into a near immediate LYLO.

N0 - Successful kill. 8 left.
D1 - "I found a Mafia!", 66% likely. Mis-lynch. 7 left.
N1 - Successful kill. 6 left. Game over.

And even if we luckily only have two mafia.

D2 - "That detective's a fraud!" "Wait, I investigated myself, I'm insane!" "Wrong order of checking things, jackass!" And a ton of WIFOM ensues almost assuredly resulting in a mis-lynch. 5 left.
N2 - All but assured kill. 4 left. Game over.

If that's how an insane detective could and likely would play out, I incredibly doubt Top would let that happen. That's a Monk Basher class move, not a Top one. So the possibility is there, just... incredibly slim of a chance compared to the other options.

And there is a flaw in your logic. It all seems to revolve around me being killed by day two's end, especially by the Mafia after I shoot someone not-Scar. The fact that I've come up Mafia in an investigation 100% assures I'm going to have suspicion against me no matter what unless I'm investigated again with a different result. I am now officially the easiest patsy to pick for ending the game in the Mafia's favor. That doesn't mean I'm dead immediately; as long as I'm kept out of the power seats Day Two, guess who's the most suspicious guy to place on trial for Day Three to work out the whole debacle? This guy.
Once I'm confirmed, I'm still in trouble. Just not necessarily by the end of day two.

(P.S. Based on the above scenario of how quickly this game could end, I'm guessing we have Two Mafia. Assuming a death happens each phase, only getting one LYLO'd day phase would kinda suck to fail by.)

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Goten is dead!

At the strike of noon, the nomination phase reaches its conclusion. The votes are tallied.

Scar - 2 - Dr Henry, Godders
PenguinGuy - 3 - Kikori, Scar, Ex Rex

It is decided: PenguinGuy will be put to trial.

Trial Phase 1 Begins.

Plaintiff: Scar
Defendant: PenguinGuy
Judge: Kikori

Only the above three players may speak in this phase. Other players may contribute solely with a Guilty or Not Guilty vote. This vote may be changed. No other posting from the other players will be allowed, including quotes!

Penguin may elect a Lawyer. (Elect: Player) If he does so, that player may speak as well.

Once Scar and Penguin (and the Lawyer if Penguin elects one) have posted, I will start a 48-hour deadline. Kikori has until that deadline to decide Verdict: Guilty or Verdict: Not Guilty. If he decides Guilty, Penguin will be lynched. If he decides Not Guilty, Penguin will be spared. If he does not decide, Kikori will be lynched. At that point the game will continue to Night 1.

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Because if you use your one-shot it confirms your role, and if you lynch a mafia it confirms your role. Confirmed PR's are high on the mafia kill list. If you don't, you'll enter D2 with the most suspicion, and likely be lynched. Yes, you might live after you confirm yourself, and Yes, you might not be lynched D2 if you don't confirm yourself. But it is more likely that you won't survive.

But now that we have entered the nomination phase, we have to try to kill a Mafia. We all agree that Scar is telling the truth. I know that I am not Mafia. So the only way for me to get a mafia dead today would be to pick a mafia lawyer and convince you to shoot him. Unfortunately with the amount of dicussion that has occured, the only people who have made any significant contribution besides us is LanderpureX and Dr. Henry. Of the two, Dr. Henry seems scummier, with his disregard of possibly killing our investigative role D1. I would like some feedback however before I begin this plan.

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And for the safe of safety's sake with the timer, it would have to be before Scar posts. That way the 48 hour timer doesn't officially start ticking. I suppose we'll say this, roleplay wise, is "Scar is late due to traffic."

Ex Rex is somewhat suspect for forcing you into this. There was still the option of no trial, but a Nomination phase is basically the length of a Day phase in normal Mafia, so it's not as if we were being too rushed for comfort.
What suddenly strikes me as interesting is that, despite Lander saying "I will force you into trial if need be", it ended up being Rex who cast the vote for it one good night's sleep before the nomination phase ended.
The only reason I would choose Henry over Lander is because Henry gave a complete thumbs down to the mere idea of a Framer. This is a new style of Mafia with a completely set of roles that mimic many of previous games and variants. (Hell, this is basically Kingmaker revamped, after all). That does not, in any way, mean the Framer-type of role is nonexistent, and tossing the idea out the window shocks me a bit.

If you had to pick a Lawyer for seeming scummy, those two are who I'd suggest for the above reasons. Personally, I'd suggest Rex.

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Goten is dead!

I wouldn't say forced though. An extra 48 hours of dicussion and a chance to kill a mafia seems like a good enough reward for the chance of killing a villager. To get anyone else to trial would require three of Ex Rex, Monk, Lander, and Myself to vote for the same person. With eight hours left at the time of that post it would be unlikely.

Not sure what you're getting at with that. Are you questioning why Ex Rex wouldn't trust Lander?
Henry was also more than willing to risk getting our detective killed.

The reason I'm picking a scummy lawyer is so you can use your one-shot, killing a mafia and confirming yourself in the process, so I'm not going to pick someone you don't think is scum.

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I'm here now, and I think understandably so I am not ok with Kikori giving any kind of advice to anyone right now. I get the possibility that there is a Framer, but what I fail to see is how that clears him.

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Because if there is a framer, then he might have framed Kikori, which would give you a false mafia report. If this is the case, then if Kikori uses his role as a one-shot daytime vig, it will prove his innocence. That is why we are discussing lawyer choices, since there is little suspicion on me, but suspicion on Ex Rex and Henry. He can confirm himself and kill a Mafia in one fell swoop.

If he is lying however, the lawyer is irrelevant, and he will either get a free kill on me, or let me live in a WIFOM gambit to raise suspicion on me. Even if this is the case, there would be no harm in going with the first plan, so who do YOU believe is Mafia Scar, besides Kikori? Ex Rex went directly against you in nominating me, and Henry was perfectly willing to let you, the town investigative role, die.

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