Mafia XVIII: Return of the Roman Numerals: D6: Scum keep tub

Market Man6 · **Posted:** April 26th, 2012, 2:32 pm

Hey lander, when i investigated kikori it said he was scum.

Landerpurex · **Posted:** April 26th, 2012, 2:35 pm

Oh my goodness.

Well that changes things a bit. The section I used was one that was from his own post...

The logic stands, but it shifts a bit as well, obviously. I haven't the time to reevaluate it now, but the fact that he's misrepresenting something this serious does not serve to make him look any more innocent.

Godders · **Posted:** April 26th, 2012, 3:09 pm

If the 4 detective thing is true, then depending on if i am sane or insane is the difference between Top or Kikori being Mafia.

Kikori · **Posted:** April 26th, 2012, 4:24 pm

I can finger you as scum, but a wise man once said "If you're right but nobody supports you, it doesn't matter". Somehow, some way, nobody seems keen on supporting me as I attack Market. However you don't see his behavior as too red named to attack, I don't know, but the fact that you've half-assed two votes on him today yet otherwise just blatantly ignored his behavior is in no way comforting.

A funny thing about theories, they're based off what someone "knows" and what they intend to find out. I took your word as the truth because I believed you were honest. Were you being honest about your role, your "You were protected" statement would be true.
However, if I think of you as a Mafia, there is no way your "You were protected" statement could be the truth. Ergo the situation would have to change. There's a line between "Flip flopping" one's logic and adjusting it to match the situation.
For me, the situation is this: You lied about being Doctor. My "scumminess" tied to Topsummoner gave you an ideal chance to throw the wool over this game, potentially taking out two power players and doctors at the cost of yourself while keeping your buddies on the back seat of suspicion. Add to that you seem oblivious to Market's inability to stay on the good side of behavior, it's not unreasonable to see his claim being orchestrated to finalize me getting killed. He comes out not a suspect, I come out dead, and with one less doctor to worry about your job of hitting a high-priority target tonight becomes that much easier.

When did I contest your claim? When I stopped believing you to be a villager. All game I've had to deal with crap about "attacking Topsummoner about BBcode", as stupid a thing as I've ever heard. It's the basis behind Henry's gut feeling against me, for god's sake. So when you pull up something as equally miniscule, the incorrect naming of roles, as a reason in your vote against me? Desperate Lander is desperate, certainly a trait I've never seen in you before. And, if you'll allow me an opinion, it just doesn't sit well with me.

And of course I don't like it that my death "has" to be the start of it all. Hell, I've poured every bit of logic my head could grasp this train wreck of roleclaims to be, and I'd like to see it through to figure out as far as I can get.
Sadly, that does not include the next few hours. Nephew's baseball game starts soon. :\

Scar · **Posted:** April 26th, 2012, 4:28 pm

Dr Henry wrote:

I think Monk owes it to us, considering we all signed up for a normal game, to confirm whether this is a variant or not.

This is getting ridiculous. Aragorn and I are the only vanilla townies (Scar, anything from you?) or there are a lot of fake roleclaims going on...

Sorry, didn't sleep Tuesday night and had a end of the year presentation Wednesday morning and then slept for like a day solid.

I am a normal Villager however I am more than a bit pissed that normal Villager isn't the majority role in this game( or so it seems).

I'm sticking with my origional vote for Topsummoner, there have been more than enough conveniently timed role-claims this game but his was first, and his still seems the scummiest to me.

Topsummoner · **Posted:** April 26th, 2012, 4:42 pm

I'm going to repost this before I go on:

Assuming Kikori is villager:

Godders - Insane, Paranoid
Ex Rex - Sane, Naive
Riptide - Insane, Paranoid
Market - Insane, Paranoid

Assuming Kikori is mafia:

Godders - Insane, Paranoid
Ex Rex - Insane, Naive
Riptide - Sane, Paranoid
Market - Sane, Paranoid

(Godders sanity is based off of my knowledge of my own alignment)

Either Kikori or one of the detectives is lying, because if Kikori is villager then it's impossible for there to be one of each flavour of detective. There'd be a double somewhere in there.

However, if Kikori is mafia the sanities check out, we confirm Godders and Ex Rex's sanities and narrow down Riptide and Market's.

So we lynch Kikori. I think his Doctor claim is full of crap, and just an attempt to become one of the 'claimed' players now that its become apparent most if not all village players are roles. If we're wrong about him, then we know at least one of the detectives is lying because the sanities don't check out.

If Kikori is indeed mafia, I peg the other mafia to be among Henry, Scar, and Aragorn, the 'vanilla' claims. Tahu is easily-enough confirmed if he performs his daykill.

Dr Henry · **Posted:** April 26th, 2012, 5:15 pm

Landerpurex wrote:

And I still maintain that those who are claiming to be vanilla are most likely to be scum...but I'm becoming more suspicious of Kikori as well. Here we apparently have a game that's very easy for the mafia to fake claim...

Really? So by your definition, you have just said that Aragorn, Scar and I are scum. Not any of the fake roleclaimers right now? Or the DayVig who cannot be proven until tested (and that would require us agreeing on targets)...

If I were mafia, I assure you that I would've quite happily gone around roleclaiming to add extra confusion to the mix. The reality is, I'm feeling the same as Scar - if everyone has a role, why both with us 3 vanilla townies at all :/

Landerpurex wrote:

An argument can also be made that as soon as we find a useful detective, he'll be killed off. Funny thing, seems to me, is that the mafia are in a very terrible position right now. There are (theoretically) two-three doctors. There are three-four detectives. There is a daytime vigilante. There is at least one dangerous 'vanilla townie'. Throw in the possibilities of doctor protection, and it's a recipe for mafia disaster. They first have to choose who is the most dangerous or take a shot at who is the most useful doctor/detective, or whether to kill Tahu before he uses his ability, or to forgo all that and get a (again, theoretically) successful kill on Doc Henry.

We need to figure out whose roles are going to be useful, and whose aren't. This starts with your death, whether you like it or not.

Out of curiousity here, why a successful kill on me? Am I the dangerous 'vanilla townie'? o.O

I don't like that logic... much better targets... mafia should leave me alone! I want to liveeeee!

At the start of the day, I was voting for Topsummoner because I believe him to be mafia. I still do. I also still maintain that Kikori is mafia.

I don't know if you all remember, but on Day One, before all this craziness, Top was claiming to want to be a leader, not a follower. Right now he isn't doing a great job - his playstyle, in my eyes, has reverted back to normal after I called him up on acting scummy and he almost got lynched. To me, he made a fake roleclaim and is now trying to hide with Lander and Kikori fighting it out (again...)

It is late, so I will re-read the topic and make an opinion tomorrow morning, but as it stands my vote sticks with Topsummoner. Too many Doctors here, I don't believe Kik OR Top.

Dr Henry · **Posted:** April 26th, 2012, 5:16 pm

Oh, and I'd also recommend that Tahu use his DayVig kill on Kikori.

Dr Henry · **Posted:** April 26th, 2012, 5:17 pm

Topsummoner wrote:

If Kikori is indeed mafia, I peg the other mafia to be among Henry, Scar, and Aragorn, the 'vanilla' claims. Tahu is easily-enough confirmed if he performs his daykill.

This line is also scummiest of the lot.

Since I believe that Top and Kikori are mafia together, Top is now throwing Kikori under the bus and also then going to use that to try to base a lynch against three villagers (right now I will assume that I'm not the only vanilla townie so the other two are telling the truth), buying him a lot of time and saving him and the other real mafia.

Topsummoner · **Posted:** April 26th, 2012, 5:19 pm

Dr Henry wrote:

Top was claiming to want to be a leader, not a follower. Right now he isn't doing a great job - his playstyle, in my eyes, has reverted back to normal after I called him up on acting scummy and he almost got lynched.

Force of habit I suppose. Day One I was intentionally trying to be more aggressive but after the overwhelming complications of today I reverted back to my default playstyle.

Dr Henry wrote:

Top is now throwing Kikori under the bus

You say that like I haven't been trying to lynch him all game and am now only trying to lynch him because I can gain something from it.

Dr Henry · **Posted:** April 26th, 2012, 5:24 pm

Topsummoner wrote:

Dr Henry wrote:

Top was claiming to want to be a leader, not a follower. Right now he isn't doing a great job - his playstyle, in my eyes, has reverted back to normal after I called him up on acting scummy and he almost got lynched.

Force of habit I suppose. Day One I was intentionally trying to be more aggressive but after the overwhelming complications of today I reverted back to my default playstyle.

Dr Henry wrote:

Top is now throwing Kikori under the bus

You say that like I haven't been trying to lynch him all game and am now only trying to lynch him because I can gain something from it.

I suppose I can somewhat understand the reversion to default...

If you recall, my Day One argument was that you are trying to lynch each other all game to distance you from him, and whoever dies first gives the other the excuse of fighting them from the off.

Topsummoner · **Posted:** April 26th, 2012, 5:25 pm

There's nothing to say to that that I haven't already said.

Dr Henry · **Posted:** April 26th, 2012, 5:29 pm

Topsummoner wrote:

There's nothing to say to that that I haven't already said.

In regards to you, I'm pretty sure I've said all I can say too.

I think you are mafia. Thought it yesterday, thought it at the start of today, craziness happened, not quite got my head around it, but I still see you as scum.

Topsummoner · **Posted:** April 26th, 2012, 5:33 pm

Dr Henry wrote:

craziness happened, not quite got my head around it

The craziness is here to stay whether you like it or not. Stubbornly pursuing your suspicions without accounting for the changes the game has undergone is just foolish.

Dr Henry · **Posted:** April 26th, 2012, 5:41 pm

Topsummoner wrote:

Dr Henry wrote:

craziness happened, not quite got my head around it

The craziness is here to stay whether you like it or not. Stubbornly pursuing your suspicions without accounting for the changes the game has undergone is just foolish.

The thing is, that isn't what I have done.

I've accounted for the changes, I need to see some evidence to really know what is going on. The happenings since then, including what I believe to be a fake roleclaim from you, a correct counterclaim from Lander, and a fake roleclaim from Kikori, plus you restarting the arguments with Kik to distance eachother, have lead to me conclude that I still want you dead. You are scum in my eyes.

Tahu 1000 · **Posted:** April 26th, 2012, 6:01 pm

This game's moving much faster as far as posts go than I remember. I apologize ahead of time for the relative sparsity of my posts. I'm going to stick with Market, because if he is lying, then we don't run into the issue of a repeated detective sanity. Also, when I said "bubble," I was referring to my alignment; we're all either bubbles (town) or scum (mafia), as far as the flavor of this game goes. I'm sorry for any confusion that caused.

I'm honestly not sure we're going to get anywhere but a WIFOM without getting some confirmation one way or another; if anyone hasn't voted, might as well.

Dr Henry · **Posted:** April 26th, 2012, 6:08 pm

Tahu 1000 wrote:

This game's moving much faster as far as posts go than I remember. I apologize ahead of time for the relative sparsity of my posts. I'm going to stick with Market, because if he is lying, then we don't run into the issue of a repeated detective sanity. Also, when I said "bubble," I was referring to my alignment; we're all either bubbles (town) or scum (mafia), as far as the flavor of this game goes. I'm sorry for any confusion that caused.

I'm honestly not sure we're going to get anywhere but a WIFOM without getting some confirmation one way or another; if anyone hasn't voted, might as well.

Well as far as a vanilla townie goes, I'm a "Scrubbing Bubble". If your role also referred to a bubble of some sort, then I am inclined to believe your role.

If Kikori had to question what a bubble was, and a vanilla townie and a townie with a role, both had the term bubble used, then perhaps he didn't see the word bubble in his PM because he is scum...

I really do think you should prove your role (and since it is one-shot, become a vanilla townie afterwards) by killing Kikori.

Landerpurex · **Posted:** April 26th, 2012, 8:07 pm

Doc, you just said that you wouldn't advise Tahu using his kill on Kikori...

Kikori wrote:

I can finger you as scum, but a wise man once said "If you're right but nobody supports you, it doesn't matter". Somehow, some way, nobody seems keen on supporting me as I attack Market. However you don't see his behavior as too red named to attack, I don't know, but the fact that you've half-assed two votes on him today yet otherwise just blatantly ignored his behavior is in no way comforting.

It was me! I said that! :laugh:

Kikori. Think of the numbers. Four detectives. Four variants of detectives. His claim makes sense.

Quote:

A funny thing about theories, they're based off what someone "knows" and what they intend to find out. I took your word as the truth because I believed you were honest. Were you being honest about your role, your "You were protected" statement would be true.
However, if I think of you as a Mafia, there is no way your "You were protected" statement could be the truth. Ergo the situation would have to change. There's a line between "Flip flopping" one's logic and adjusting it to match the situation.
For me, the situation is this: You lied about being Doctor. My "scumminess" tied to Topsummoner gave you an ideal chance to throw the wool over this game, potentially taking out two power players and doctors at the cost of yourself while keeping your buddies on the back seat of suspicion. Add to that you seem oblivious to Market's inability to stay on the good side of behavior, it's not unreasonable to see his claim being orchestrated to finalize me getting killed. He comes out not a suspect, I come out dead, and with one less doctor to worry about your job of hitting a high-priority target tonight becomes that much easier.

You basically confirmed exactly what I said. All it amounts to is "I changed my mind". But you DIDN'T change your mind until I had decided that you were scum. Convenient?

Quote:

Desperate Lander is desperate, certainly a trait I've never seen in you before. And, if you'll allow me an opinion, it just doesn't sit well with me.

That's awfully cheap of you to call me desperate. My reasons for voting you are as solid as any. Again, you don't seem to grasp the amount of information your lynch could generate. If I were in your shoes, I'd be more than happy to die for the greater good of the town.

Kikori · **Posted:** April 26th, 2012, 8:33 pm

Dr Henry wrote:

Well as far as a vanilla townie goes, I'm a "Scrubbing Bubble". If your role also referred to a bubble of some sort, then I am inclined to believe your role.

If Kikori had to question what a bubble was, and a vanilla townie and a townie with a role, both had the term bubble used, then perhaps he didn't see the word bubble in his PM because he is scum...

I really do think you should prove your role (and since it is one-shot, become a vanilla townie afterwards) by killing Kikori.

Then let's ask the other roles.
Rex, Riptide, Lander, Top, Market, Godders: Are you Bubble Detectives? Scrubbing Doctors? Ace Detective Bubbles?
I don't know about the rest of 'em, but I got "Doctor". :?:

Lander, his claim is the only thing about him that makes sense. You can call it ignoring logic that his claim somehow undoes everything else he's spewed today, but I'd sooner call it abandoning logic.

You decided I was scum off circumstance and bad logic. A roleclaim of "Doctor" does not a Mafia make. Nor does attacking someone you actually have a suspicion on with reasons to back it--I know for a fact you've encouraged it before, the only difference between then and now is because I'm attacking you for a terrible deal-maker triggering your attack on me.
Two people in my sights that I want to see dead--you and Market--with two people you wanted to see dead or at least put under heavy scrutiny--Market and Henry. You go from A to B to C, covering your own ass with "I'm still suspicious of ___" remarks but in the end still unable to find anything but unconfirmed suspicions to back your vote.
Why do you want me dead? Because you want the Detective sanity question answered. Pretty damn convenient that Market's claim seals my own fate and saves your ass from being a suspect when I come up Doctor.

I stand by my reasoning and hope to see one of you two gone before the end of the day. I'd hate to break the super-duper-houdini-lynch-escape-artist streak, but if a mastermind gets this far, I'd rather see him dead.

Landerpurex · **Posted:** April 26th, 2012, 9:35 pm

Then let's unite.

Market Man6

And WHEN he turns up town, you'll be the first to go.

Mafia XVIII: Return of the Roman Numerals: D6: Scum keep tub

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