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 Post subject: CERN scientists 'break the speed of light'
PostPosted: September 22nd, 2011, 2:53 pm 
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Antonio Ereditato, spokesman for the international group of researchers, said that measurements taken over three years showed neutrinos pumped from CERN near Geneva to Gran Sasso in Italy had arrived 60 nanoseconds quicker than light would have done.
"We have high confidence in our results. We have checked and rechecked for anything that could have distorted our measurements but we found nothing," he said. "We now want colleagues to check them independently."
If confirmed, the discovery would undermine Albert Einstein's 1905 theory of special relativity, which says that the speed of light is a "cosmic constant" and that nothing in the universe can travel faster.
That assertion, which has withstood over a century of testing, is one of the key elements of the so-called Standard Model of physics, which attempts to describe the way the universe and everything in it works.
The totally unexpected finding emerged from research by a physicists working on an experiment dubbed OPERA run jointly by the CERN particle research centre near Geneva and the Gran Sasso Laboratory in central Italy

A total of 15,000 beams of neutrinos - tiny particles that pervade the cosmos - were fired over a period of three years from CERN towards Gran Sasso 730 (500 miles) km away, where they were picked up by giant detectors.
Light would have covered the distance in around 2.4 thousandths of a second, but the neutrinos took 60 nanoseconds - or 60 billionths of a second - less than light beams would have taken.
"It is a tiny difference," said Ereditato, who also works at Berne University in Switzerland, "but conceptually it is incredibly important. The finding is so startling that, for the moment, everybody should be very prudent."
Ereditato declined to speculate on what it might mean if other physicists, who will be officially informed of the discovery at a meeting in CERN on Friday, found that OPERA's measurements were correct.
"I just don't want to think of the implications," he said. "We are scientists and work with what we know."
Much science-fiction literature is based on the idea that, if the light-speed barrier can be overcome, time travel might theoretically become possible.
The existence of the neutrino, an elementary sub-atomic particle with a tiny amount of mass created in radioactive decay or in nuclear reactions such as those in the Sun, was first confirmed in 1934, but it still mystifies researchers.
It can pass through most matter undetected, even over long distances, and without being affected. Millions pass through the human body every day, scientists say.
To reach Gran Sasso, the neutrinos pushed out from a special installation at CERN - also home to the Large Hadron Collider probing the origins of the universe - have to pass through water, air and rock.
The underground Italian laboratory, some 120 km (75 miles) to the south of Rome, is the largest of its type in the world for particle physics and cosmic research.
Around 750 scientists from 22 different countries work there, attracted by the possibility of staging experiments in its three massive halls, protected from cosmic rays by some 1,400 metres (4,200 feet) of rock overhead.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/8782 ... light.html

Inb4 they're proved wrong, but pretty cool if they are right.

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 Post subject: Re: CERN scientists 'break the speed of light'
PostPosted: September 22nd, 2011, 3:20 pm 
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If this actually turns out to be true, the world of Physics will never be the same.

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 Post subject: Re: CERN scientists 'break the speed of light'
PostPosted: September 22nd, 2011, 5:12 pm 
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It's very interesting, although they're not necessarily claiming that the neutrinos broke the light barrier as they're pretty much inviting people to tell them what they did wrong due to the implications and presumed impossibility

Which isn't exactly the right way to go about science, you shouldn't really ever be looking for a certain answer, just finding the answers to questions without bias

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 Post subject: Re: CERN scientists 'break the speed of light'
PostPosted: September 22nd, 2011, 5:21 pm 
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This is an awesome article. I'm very interested in the outcome.

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 Post subject: Re: CERN scientists 'break the speed of light'
PostPosted: September 22nd, 2011, 5:29 pm 
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The most significant part of the article is the calculations were collected 15,000 times and came up the same. Here's hoping they're right because the implications are huge.

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 Post subject: Re: CERN scientists 'break the speed of light'
PostPosted: September 22nd, 2011, 11:02 pm 
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Time travel is mathematically possible, but now...actually knowing YOU CAN TRAVEL FASTER THAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT is beyond belief.
But neutrinos have almost no mass, so to actually make time travel a reality you would have to...have no mass.
I'm no physicist, but I think we can all agree:

THIS.
IS.
INSANE.

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 Post subject: Re: CERN scientists 'break the speed of light'
PostPosted: September 22nd, 2011, 11:17 pm 
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Eat it relativists claiming Einstein as gospel...

I told you so!

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 Post subject: Re: CERN scientists 'break the speed of light'
PostPosted: September 23rd, 2011, 1:48 am 
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Znath wrote:
Eat it relativists claiming Einstein as gospel...

I told you so!

It probably won't invalidate most of special relativity anyway, we'd just need some tweaking for circumstances in which faster than light travel is possible

Probably

I mean Einstein proved Newton wrong but we still teach that

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 Post subject: Re: CERN scientists 'break the speed of light'
PostPosted: September 23rd, 2011, 4:26 am 
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Normal person: HOLY CRAP, WARP DRIVE CAN HAPPEN!

Scientist: Tachyons are real. Now what?

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 Post subject: Re: CERN scientists 'break the speed of light'
PostPosted: September 23rd, 2011, 7:55 am 
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Eadwulf wrote:
Normal person: HOLY CRAP, WARP DRIVE CAN HAPPEN!

Scientist: Tachyons are real. Now what?


Well no, because they aren't tachyons, they were neutrinos...

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 Post subject: Re: CERN scientists 'break the speed of light'
PostPosted: September 23rd, 2011, 8:18 am 
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Wow, this is incredible.

But what I want to know is how those little particles achieved that speed? What the heck were they launched from? It says they were "pumped". I am confuse.

Science was always my weakest subject, but discoveries/updates like these are always interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: CERN scientists 'break the speed of light'
PostPosted: September 23rd, 2011, 10:58 am 
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Aragorn Ix wrote:
Eadwulf wrote:
Normal person: HOLY CRAP, WARP DRIVE CAN HAPPEN!

Scientist: Tachyons are real. Now what?


Well no, because they aren't tachyons, they were neutrinos...


And that makes a difference?
When this happens with full-fledged atoms (let alone molecules), we'll have more than a broken theory. For now, we just know the speed of light has been broken by an inconsequentially low-mass substance.

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 Post subject: Re: CERN scientists 'break the speed of light'
PostPosted: September 23rd, 2011, 11:38 am 
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Rayseima wrote:
Time travel is mathematically possible, but now...actually knowing YOU CAN TRAVEL FASTER THAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT is beyond belief.
But neutrinos have almost no mass, so to actually make time travel a reality you would have to...have no mass.
I'm no physicist, but I think we can all agree:

THIS.
IS.
INSANE.


Words have no mass.

Stein's Gate has opened!

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 Post subject: Re: CERN scientists 'break the speed of light'
PostPosted: September 23rd, 2011, 12:54 pm 
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If someone would care to enlighten me, I've never understood why it was assumed nothing could travel faster than light. I understand relativity/special relativity and have taken several chemistry/physics courses in college (getting a minor), but I've still always been curious why it was arbitrarily chosen that light is the fastest and nothing can go faster.

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 Post subject: Re: CERN scientists 'break the speed of light'
PostPosted: September 23rd, 2011, 1:59 pm 
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Blackmage172 wrote:
If someone would care to enlighten me, I've never understood why it was assumed nothing could travel faster than light. I understand relativity/special relativity and have taken several chemistry/physics courses in college (getting a minor), but I've still always been curious why it was arbitrarily chosen that light is the fastest and nothing can go faster.


Because light (photons) have no mass. Everything else (pretty much anyhow) has at least a certain amount of mass. The speed of light (186,000 miles per second) was based around the fact that it is the ultimate speed because it has zero mass, nothing known to science can have negative mass so that is the ultimate barrier of speed.

This is what someone with more knowledge on the subject than me said:

"The lightspeed barrier is IT. It's the one fundamental thing nobody really contemplates as being breakable.

Theory, skip if bored:
Things require energy to accelerate, proportional to their mass (F=MA). As this energy is applied, they gain kinetic energy (KE = 0.5 MV^2). Energy has mass (I don't get that, never have), and so as things get really fast, their mass increases, and so it requires more force to accelerate them.

Lightspeed is the point at which the mass becomes infinite, therefore the energy required for more acceleration becomes infinite, so you should never be able to break that barrier without deliberately folding spacetime or some similar not-known-to-be-possible trick. Light can only do it because photons don't have mass. Supposedly.

If they've got particles exceeding C, one of three things is the case. Either the above is actually wrong, in which case we have no idea what's going on. OR they're folding space in that lab, which would be unprecedented and really awesome, OR they've miscalculated something. My money's on the latter. "

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 Post subject: Re: CERN scientists 'break the speed of light'
PostPosted: September 23rd, 2011, 2:05 pm 
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I'm with Jeroen, it's kinda cool how they want people to try to disprove them.

But if they aren't.....Man, this is huge.

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 Post subject: Re: CERN scientists 'break the speed of light'
PostPosted: September 23rd, 2011, 2:10 pm 
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Kikori wrote:
Aragorn Ix wrote:
Eadwulf wrote:
Normal person: HOLY CRAP, WARP DRIVE CAN HAPPEN!

Scientist: Tachyons are real. Now what?


Well no, because they aren't tachyons, they were neutrinos...


And that makes a difference?
When this happens with full-fledged atoms (let alone molecules), we'll have more than a broken theory. For now, we just know the speed of light has been broken by an inconsequentially low-mass substance.

Yes. A tachyon is defined as a particle that can move faster than the speed of light, but never slower than the speed of light. It also has a ton of other fancy properties (all hypothetical) which probably make it very different from a neutrino.

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 Post subject: Re: CERN scientists 'break the speed of light'
PostPosted: September 23rd, 2011, 2:34 pm 
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Aragorn Ix wrote:
speed of light theory

Ahhh, that does make a lot more sense now. Thanks for clarifying.

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 Post subject: Re: CERN scientists 'break the speed of light'
PostPosted: September 23rd, 2011, 5:45 pm 
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Jackstick wrote:
Kikori wrote:
Aragorn Ix wrote:
Eadwulf wrote:
Normal person: HOLY CRAP, WARP DRIVE CAN HAPPEN!

Scientist: Tachyons are real. Now what?


Well no, because they aren't tachyons, they were neutrinos...


And that makes a difference?
When this happens with full-fledged atoms (let alone molecules), we'll have more than a broken theory. For now, we just know the speed of light has been broken by an inconsequentially low-mass substance.

Yes. A tachyon is defined as a particle that can move faster than the speed of light, but never slower than the speed of light. It also has a ton of other fancy properties (all hypothetical) which probably make it very different from a neutrino.


Actually this theoretical property of tachyons may be refuted with the validation of these test results; the inability to decelerate is derived entirely from the proposed characteristics that are necessary for a particle to have in order to achieve superluminal velocity, e.g. zero mass. In this case, tachyonic neutrinos have been produced, creating a superluminal particle that has a nonzero mass, and as such, it can be asserted that non-relativistic tachyons exist.

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 Post subject: Re: CERN scientists 'break the speed of light'
PostPosted: September 27th, 2011, 11:59 am 
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Basically this
"Why can't we go faster than light"

Here's how I see it.
KE = 0.5 MV^2

So no... mass doesn't increase. Kinetic energy does.
The problem is the "^2"
So you also have the reverse of it meaning how much energy it would take to get an object to light speed. And I think this is what really freaks scientists out is how many zeros there are.
That's how much fuel/energy/etc you'd need to push it.

It seems a lot easier to say "well.. force reaches infinity" or "time dilation" will simply prevent light speed from being viable.

Time dilation is that idea that if you go beyond light speed, time slows down around you.
This is in some relation to bending time and high velocity...etc etc, it's extremely complicated and in my opinion... wrong.

In what I'd like to call "the physical universe" time dilation doesn't happen. The more energy you put into something.. the faster it goes. It's as simple as that in my opinion.

Here's the problem there though. In a purely physical reactive universe with no space magic or space-time you have to deliver that force. A chemical rocket works by shooting heated gas out the back which effectively bounces off the rocket to push it. So to go light speed, you need something extremely forceful and fast to go faster. Eventually a chemical rocket can't go that speed.

Eventually even an atomic powered rocket won't get any faster. Beyond that, what would start to approach light speed? The holy grail seems to be antimatter by the assumption you can either control the reaction if it's big... or that it doesn't just neutralize and do nothing. The fastest acting forces we know of are gravity, magnetism, and possibly antimatter.

The biggest obstacle is "how do you deliver the energy" even a golfball would take tremendously large amounts of energy to get to light speed even ignoring the mass of the rocket needed it takes a ton of energy probably in the order of 1000000000000000 joules kinds of energy or roughly the force of an atomic bomb focused solely on a golfball to move lightspeed.

Even assuming you have enough fuel to do so, it takes more and exponentially more energy to go a tiny bit faster. Meaning that even if we got to 90% light speed 91% would probably take double the energy... kind of like leveling on RS. And containing the force of several nuclear bombs exploding would be very hard.




TLDR? Why is this article important?
Because even though tachyons and super-lightspeed particles have existed before
Humans caused it this time! Before it's all natural reactions and low mass particles like electrons.
This means you CAN move mass beyond light speed with force alone.

This could potentially lead to highspeed rocket engines much like the ion-rockets where low mass particles + extremely high velocity = high velocity rocket with low fuel use.

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