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 Post subject: U.S. should copy Switzerland : Consider 'maximum wage' ratio
PostPosted: November 23rd, 2013, 8:16 pm 
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CNN.com wrote:
It's an idea that's radical in its simplicity.
Swiss voters on November 24 will consider capping executive pay at 12 times what the lowest-paid worker at a company makes -- the premise being that a CEO should make no more in a month than a low-level employee earns in a year.
The referendum, which is called the "1:12 initiative" and began after supporters gathered 100,000 signatures to put it on the ballot, is the kind of elegant solution to income inequality that we in the United States should consider more seriously.
John D. Sutter
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Not because the initiative, as it will be voted on, would work in the United States. It likely wouldn't. But because the idea of tethering top executive pay to SOME sort of concrete metric might stop American execs from floating further into the stratosphere.
RELATED: The most unequal place in America
Here in America, the land of unequal opportunity, the CEOs of top-500 companies make in a single day about what it takes an average "rank-and-file" worker a year to earn, according to the AFL-CIO, the federation of unions. Switzerland has an average CEO-to-worker compensation ratio of 148 to 1, the group says.
The average U.S. rate is 354 to 1, according to the AFL-CIO.
Others put the ratio somewhat lower, around 273 to 1 in 2012.
Either way, it's bad. And some U.S. companies are worse, still. JC Penney Co. has the highest ratio -- 1,795:1 -- on a list of 250 businesses compiled by Bloomberg. That department store's CEO got $53.3 million in pay and benefits in 2012, Bloomberg says. Workers, by comparison, earned only about $30,000 a year.
So, like, whatever, right? What's Miley up to? It's tempting to excuse sky-high exec pay as either necessary (to attract top "talent" and because these inequality-era celebs are thought to increase the value of the companies where they exercise said talents) or inconsequential. The Swiss vote, for example, does nothing to increase average worker pay. It aims solely to clip cash from the very top of the economic ladder.
But the pay ratio does matter, for a couple of common-sense reasons.
One is that democracy starts to unravel if a few people become wildly, ethereally successful, while the rest of a country struggles. That was the best argument I heard on a recent phone call with Cedric Wermuth, a Swiss politician who has been one of the earliest proponents of the 1:12 initiative. Wermuth is not arguing for the enforced pay ratio on practical or economic grounds. His is a moral position -- that it is fundamentally unfair for the pay gap to be so wide, and that it allows a few uber-rich people to wield undo influence over society, economics and politics.
"There is a certain threat to democracy," he told me.
RELATED: Is income inequality 'morally wrong'?
Wermuth doesn't expect the 1:12 initiative to pass, but it does have about 35% to 40% support in recent polls, he told me, which is fairly staggering, and indicates people are fed up.
Another argument against sky-high CEO pay is that it's unnecessary. Lynn Stout, a distinguished professor of corporate and business law at Cornell Law School, told me CEO pay has been rising for decades and that the Untied States is, in effect, subsidizing the trend with "unlimited tax deductions" on certain forms of pay.
"I'm a big fan of capitalism," she said. "I love corporations and I love the business world and I think it's done more for peace and prosperity than people may realize. But there are structural reasons to think that executive pay and CEO pay are out of whack."
A $1 million salary worked for American CEOs from the 1930s to 1980s, she said. CEO pay, including options realized that year, jumped about 875%, to $14.1 million, from 1978 to 2012, according to the Economic Policy Institute. That increase, which is calcuated using 2012 dollars, according to EPI, is "more than double stock market growth and substantially greater than the painfully slow 5.4% growth in a typical worker's compensation over the same period."
A 5% increase at the bottom versus 875% at the top.
That's the same, right?
"What we've got is basically an arms race," Stout said, "where the CEOs are competing on pay because they each want to have higher status than the others."
RELATED: Should we vilify the rich?
Finally, all of this is bad business. Peter Drucker, who is recognized as the father of business management, famously said the CEO-to-worker salary ratio should not exceed 20:1, which is what existed in the United States in 1965, according to the Economic Policy Institute. Beyond that, managers will see an increase in "resentment and falling morale," Drucker once wrote, according to a blog post by The Drucker Institute.
That resentment is behind both the Occupy movement and the Swiss vote.
So the question to me is not if we should do something about outlandish executive pay, but what, exactly. The 1:12 ratio would be unlikely to gain any traction in the Untied States, said Mark Borges, principal at Compensia, a company that does consulting on executive pay issues. He called the measure, which, according to Wermuth, includes stock options and other non-salary forms of pay, "potentially draconian" and said most ratios between CEO and worker pay he hears discussed deal with three-digit numbers. Twelve is a shock, I'll agree, and it's probably too extreme for the United States.
It's clear, however, that the ways America has been trying to curb executive pay are not working -- perhaps because they're too convoluted and lack teeth. Shareholders get to vote on executive pay in the United States, for example, but their decisions aren't binding. Loopholes let CEOs dodge taxes on their income. And the Securities and Exchange Commission currently is asking for public comment on a proposal that would require companies to disclose the ratio of their CEO's pay to the median income of workers. (Tell them what you think of that here). But, according to some news reports, the metrics are so loosey-goosey it will be difficult to compare one company to another.
That's still just a disclosure.
Maybe we need an enforceable ratio. Something simple and real.
The best idea I've heard comes from Stout, the Cornell professor. She has suggested making CEO pay non-deductible when it's higher than 100 times the minimum wage.
I might take it one step further: Perhaps the United States should cap CEO pay at 100 times the minimum wage, combining Stout's idea with the Swiss proposal.
It's just an idea, and it should be vetted by economists and the public. But, to me, that's the point. These are concepts that should be on the table in the United States. It's ridiculous that SEC attempts to make CEO pay ratios transparent are controversial in the business community. The conversation needs to move forward.
Limiting CEO pay to 100 times the minimum wage would still allow top execs to be millionaires -- they'd earn a maximum wage of about $1.5 million per year, given the current federal minimum of $7.25 an hour, figured for a 40-hour work week. And here's the best part: If the fat cats wanted a pay increase, maybe the best way for them to get it would be to throw political weight behind a campaign to boost the minimum wage.
That's a reform simple enough to make a difference.


Thoughts?

Personally i don't think it's a good idea. when there's legislation, there's loopholes. There will always be a way for CEOs to keep their big paychecks whilst screwing over the little guy...

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 Post subject: Re: U.S. should copy Switzerland : Consider 'maximum wage' r
PostPosted: November 24th, 2013, 12:53 am 
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Limiting CEO pay to 100 times the minimum wage would still allow top execs to be millionaires -- they'd earn a maximum wage of about $1.5 million per year, given the current federal minimum of $7.25 an hour, figured for a 40-hour work week. And here's the best part: If the fat cats wanted a pay increase, maybe the best way for them to get it would be to throw political weight behind a campaign to boost the minimum wage.

CEO's don't work 40 hours a week. They work substantially more, making far higher level decisions than those below them. I'm wary about government intervention in private companies as well.

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 Post subject: Re: U.S. should copy Switzerland : Consider 'maximum wage' r
PostPosted: November 25th, 2013, 12:32 am 
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What do you actually have to do to make 14million dollars in a year? How can you justify paying yourself that.

Its Fuzzy Bunny that some people make that much more than their coworkers

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 Post subject: Re: U.S. should copy Switzerland : Consider 'maximum wage' r
PostPosted: November 25th, 2013, 6:46 am 
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Market Man6 wrote:
What do you actually have to do to make 14million dollars in a year? How can you justify paying yourself that.

Its Fuzzy Bunny that some people make that much more than their coworkers


It's even more Fuzzy Bunny that people can get paid similar amounts for running up and down a field :?:

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"But you will never succeed!" they cry out.
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 Post subject: Re: U.S. should copy Switzerland : Consider 'maximum wage' r
PostPosted: November 25th, 2013, 7:17 am 
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Market Man6 wrote:
What do you actually have to do to make 14million dollars in a year?


Make incredibly difficult strategic decisions to ensure your companies owners are earning a proper return on their investment and ensure that all those coworkers actually still have jobs in 5 years.

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 Post subject: Re: U.S. should copy Switzerland : Consider 'maximum wage' r
PostPosted: November 25th, 2013, 1:07 pm 
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Applequest wrote:
Market Man6 wrote:
What do you actually have to do to make 14million dollars in a year?


Make incredibly difficult strategic decisions to ensure your companies owners are earning a proper return on their investment and ensure that all those coworkers actually still have jobs in 5 years.
This. I don't like this news story; there's too many loophole factors. 12 times what the lowest-paid worker makes? If you've got a waitress or whoever working at $2.50 somewhere and making the rest in tips, does that cap you at $30 an hour? Are we taking into account that the "lowest-paid worker" is working part-time, or maybe just 10 hours a week? Not to mention that there's a reason highly-paid employees are highly-paid. You'll hear about all the outrageous ones in the news, sure, because the media likes to turn the general populace against big companies. But if you look at, say, Bill Gates or Steve Jobs and claim they were tremendously overpaid, then I think you don't really understand what they did and what their value was.
The123king wrote:
Market Man6 wrote:
What do you actually have to do to make 14million dollars in a year? How can you justify paying yourself that.

Its Fuzzy Bunny that some people make that much more than their coworkers


It's even more Fuzzy Bunny that people can get paid similar amounts for running up and down a field :?:
If you've got to any sporting event of any time then you are the reason they get paid that much. Because packing 40,000 people in a stadium every week (or six days a week in baseball) generates a lot of revenue, and the people that are responsible for drawing that money in deserve a large portion of it.

It's like people that complain that stores are open on Thanksgiving. It's because those same people decide to shop on Thanksgiving. It's all supply and demand, and it's much more complex than this "radically simple idea" will handle.

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 Post subject: Re: U.S. should copy Switzerland : Consider 'maximum wage' r
PostPosted: November 25th, 2013, 4:39 pm 
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Jaron wrote:
Applequest wrote:
Market Man6 wrote:
What do you actually have to do to make 14million dollars in a year?


Make incredibly difficult strategic decisions to ensure your companies owners are earning a proper return on their investment and ensure that all those coworkers actually still have jobs in 5 years.
This. I don't like this news story; there's too many loophole factors. 12 times what the lowest-paid worker makes? If you've got a waitress or whoever working at $2.50 somewhere and making the rest in tips, does that cap you at $30 an hour? Are we taking into account that the "lowest-paid worker" is working part-time, or maybe just 10 hours a week? Not to mention that there's a reason highly-paid employees are highly-paid. You'll hear about all the outrageous ones in the news, sure, because the media likes to turn the general populace against big companies. But if you look at, say, Bill Gates or Steve Jobs and claim they were tremendously overpaid, then I think you don't really understand what they did and what their value was.
The123king wrote:
Market Man6 wrote:
What do you actually have to do to make 14million dollars in a year? How can you justify paying yourself that.

Its Fuzzy Bunny that some people make that much more than their coworkers


It's even more Fuzzy Bunny that people can get paid similar amounts for running up and down a field :?:
If you've got to any sporting event of any time then you are the reason they get paid that much. Because packing 40,000 people in a stadium every week (or six days a week in baseball) generates a lot of revenue, and the people that are responsible for drawing that money in deserve a large portion of it.

It's like people that complain that stores are open on Thanksgiving. It's because those same people decide to shop on Thanksgiving. It's all supply and demand, and it's much more complex than this "radically simple idea" will handle.


Bingo, Apple.

Jaron - They usually complain about the stores being open on holidays like Thanksgiving... When they're in the store themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: U.S. should copy Switzerland : Consider 'maximum wage' r
PostPosted: November 25th, 2013, 6:21 pm 
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A pay hierarchy with extreme wealth at the top and poor pay at the bottom is the staple of capitalism. There's absolutely no reason beyond pure economics that a footballer (soccer) in the UK should earn $500k a week, but a few do.

That, for me is the problem with the system, the contribution to society of a persons work is disproportionate to their payout. When you get to ridiculous companies like Walmart that pay so poorly that the US taxpayer is actually topping up the low paid workers (through medicare and food stamps) you know the system is broken beyond repair.

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 Post subject: Re: U.S. should copy Switzerland : Consider 'maximum wage' r
PostPosted: November 25th, 2013, 10:15 pm 
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Aragorn Ix wrote:
A pay hierarchy with extreme wealth at the top and poor pay at the bottom is the staple of capitalism. There's absolutely no reason beyond pure economics that a footballer (soccer) in the UK should earn $500k a week, but a few do.


If someone views them as being worth that much, and wants to pay them that, what's the issue?

Answer without reference to muh feels.

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 Post subject: Re: U.S. should copy Switzerland : Consider 'maximum wage' r
PostPosted: November 25th, 2013, 11:56 pm 
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The only solution.

Boycott everything, starve and die. Then no one will be feeding the system and it will change.

Or something like that.

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IS that technically called slavery?

Dakota.


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 Post subject: Re: U.S. should copy Switzerland : Consider 'maximum wage' r
PostPosted: November 26th, 2013, 3:25 am 
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Magicana Drofulcus wrote:
Aragorn Ix wrote:
A pay hierarchy with extreme wealth at the top and poor pay at the bottom is the staple of capitalism. There's absolutely no reason beyond pure economics that a footballer (soccer) in the UK should earn $500k a week, but a few do.


If someone views them as being worth that much, and wants to pay them that, what's the issue?

Answer without reference to muh feels.


There is no issue economically. If the worlds richest corporations are paying their top earners millions whilst relying on the US or UK tax payer to ensure their lowest level workers can actually live then we have a huge issue. That's the present situation.

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 Post subject: Re: U.S. should copy Switzerland : Consider 'maximum wage' r
PostPosted: November 30th, 2013, 2:21 pm 
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Market Man6 wrote:
What do you actually have to do to make 14million dollars in a year? How can you justify paying yourself that.

Its Fuzzy Bunny that some people make that much more than their coworkers


I'm sorry, but considering a CEO to be the co-worker of say, a janitor, is just stupid.
What are the qualifications for each position? Who does more for the company? Etc. Etc.

In a huge corporation that employs thousands of employees, not everyone is your co-worker. Especially not those in other departments. Don't be silly.

Aragorn Ix wrote:
A pay hierarchy with extreme wealth at the top and poor pay at the bottom is the staple of capitalism. There's absolutely no reason beyond pure economics that a footballer (soccer) in the UK should earn $500k a week, but a few do.

That, for me is the problem with the system, the contribution to society of a persons work is disproportionate to their payout. When you get to ridiculous companies like Walmart that pay so poorly that the US taxpayer is actually topping up the low paid workers (through medicare and food stamps) you know the system is broken beyond repair.



Again, what are the qualifications and job responsibilities between these people?


I'm sorry, but the people who work at Wal-Mart are there for one reason or another. So the guys running Wal-Mart making it possible for People of Wal-Mart to go there and shop for a low price, are contributing less than the schmuck sitting around stocking cereal boxes? Seriously?... You do realize that the schmuck stocking the cereal box only has HIS job in the first place, because the higher-ups are doing their job properly and running a profitable business? You realize that right? (Do not reverse engineer this argument, as we all know that someone, somewhere, will always accept a minimum wage job to replace the lowest tier).

Like Fords assembly line? Yeah, the guys working the line totally deserved to set the wage of the guy who came up with all the ideas, capital, and risk to get everything going, and all the guys who oversee the business, expanding sales, designing new products, etc.


CEO's are hated in the States because of jealousy and entitlement, plain and simple. Sure, some of them are crooks, that doesn't mean they all are. In fact, I would guarantee that most of Wal-Mart's lowest paid employees (IN MY AREA) steal much more and do far more illegal activities than almost any of their "co-worker" CEO. They just don't have access to as much (in $$$ amounts) to steal in one go.

Now I'm not arguing in favor of paying low wages, and cutting peoples hours (benefit exclusion)... I'm just saying, people who work at Wal-Mart (especially around here) are usually college kids (or senior citizens) just picking up some cash in their down-time from school. Anyone who has to actually try and make a living working at a place like Wal-Mart is going to be sorely disappointed. The circumstances of them having to take such a crappy job in the first place are great and varied, but I don't blame the CEO's for that.

Also, this is like many other laws that want to limit certain professions... You know what happens in this country when a job becomes unappealing? People stop doing it.

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 Post subject: Re: U.S. should copy Switzerland : Consider 'maximum wage' r
PostPosted: November 30th, 2013, 4:26 pm 
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Whilst I agree there's a reason shelf stackers and assembly line workers should be paid a lot less than the guys who come up with the ideas for the products, i still don't believe the CEOs and designers should be paid hundreds of thousands and then give themselves 7 figure sums as bonuses, just because they're the guys who keep the company running. The pay gap between the lowly janitor and the guys in head office are so extreme, i don't think anyone can really justify it.

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Runevillage the forum is pretty well much done. Runevillage the group will eventually die, but as long as we're still friends with each other in the end, it's still a pretty big thought in our heads. Runevillage the family is forever, no matter where we settle down. If absolutely nothing else ever comes of Runevillage in the future, that alone is a pretty damn awesome thought.


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 Post subject: Re: U.S. should copy Switzerland : Consider 'maximum wage' r
PostPosted: December 1st, 2013, 2:29 am 
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Supply verses demand if this guy is worth x million a year and 3 teams are willing to pay then it sits the standard of what top tier athletes make. Replace that with ceos or whatever. The real bulls hit is sub standard minimum wages in the us... hope this makes whence I'm tired.


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