Overmoderation?

Nate · **Posted:** April 26th, 2008, 1:15 pm

I'm starting to get really annoyed by posts getting deleted/ edited by trigger-happy moderators who jump on anything they see that is even slightly controversial. I agree with most of their decisions (I agree that I deserve the warning I got, and I agree with my avatar being removed).

Believe it or not, people actually have views that are controversial. Just because someone breaks the mould and says they disagree with something, or says that they think an idea is stupid, or gets irritated by someone, it doesn't mean that what they say is harmful. Whatever you do or say, you can't change what people think by editing their posts.

If you let people post things that aren't what you would expect them to think, the pub would certainly be a much more enjoyable place to be. I'm not saying that you need to let people run wild and say/ spam whatever the hell they like, I'm saying that you need to think about who's actually being harmed before you press the edit button. Believe me, I've seen many communities be ruined by letting people flame, swear and discriminate. A few weeks ago, I was showing some netbattle scripts that I wanted to share because I don't run my server anymore, and part of the script was disallowing a certain item. I got this PM:

Quote:

Your a f*g for banning choice band

I don't want RV to turn out like this, and I highly doubt it will in the near future. However, it's becoming worse and worse for stopping people enjoying themselves.

Although I hate to say this, I think it may be because RV has a rather high mod/ normal user ratio, and the users with powers want a chance to use them.

Your views?

Simons Pure · **Posted:** April 26th, 2008, 1:46 pm

Some of the mods are slightly trigger frendly, especially one in one of the sub forums I am very active in..

Tom · **Posted:** April 26th, 2008, 1:55 pm

I voted yes D:

twinArmageddons · **Posted:** April 26th, 2008, 2:06 pm

While at times things the moderators do may be excessive, they always have a reasoning for it. Thus, I voted no, things are fine.

Elanthiel · **Posted:** April 26th, 2008, 2:26 pm

In a way.

There is quite some discussion going on behind the scenes, actually. Because that is confidential, I will not reveal the exact subjects, but we do discuss matters like the one you address now.

Yes, there are mods that are quite trigger happy, however, do keep in mind that we are basically a Family Friendly rated site, which means that we have to remove inappropriate content. Posts get edited for that too, the mod leaves a note that it is edited, and the users see "ah, an other post edited .. there are a lot of those these days".

The forums are certainly not undermodded, on the contrary. I do think that there are a little much mods, to be very honest. Yet I can't really point fingers to mods that they don't deserve their position.

So while I understand your reasoning, do try to look it from a different viewpoint, actually.

Oh, and about the pm, you should contact an admin about that.. That is exactly the kind of content that we do not want our fellow villagers to be exposed to, because it is nothing more then thoughtless flame.

Sarah · **Posted:** April 26th, 2008, 2:40 pm

There are way too many mods, for example:

global moderators/board moderators:

tip.it: 10
runevillage: 19

local moderators/forum moderators

tip.it: 19
runevillage: 14

staff/crew

tip.it: 21
runevillage: 23

As you can see we have more board moderators than Tip.it and nearly equal amounts of the other moderators when we probably have about 10% of their number of users, we simply have too many for such a small site, its probably something like 5 active users to every 1 ranked person atm, which really doesn't make sense.

I honestly feel something needs to be done about it, yes we joked about it at the begining of the month but my post was actually my real feelings towards the situation.

Nate · **Posted:** April 26th, 2008, 3:51 pm

Elanthiel wrote:

Oh, and about the pm, you should contact an admin about that.. That is exactly the kind of content that we do not want our fellow villagers to be exposed to, because it is nothing more then thoughtless flame.

I kind of implied that it was on a different community.

Donut Juice · **Posted:** April 26th, 2008, 4:06 pm

You know, I agree with both Nate and Sarah.

While we are sometimes over the top with editing/locking posts, hiker has said that he wants a site where parents wouldn't be frightened or appalled if they were to view it themselves, versus some other sites where I know that the parents wouldn't be very pleased to see their children browsing.

But really, what can be done about it? All Moderators handle a situation in their own way, we each have different ways we like to moderate. There is a handbook, but it doesn't detail what to do in every possible scenario, so the vast majority of the time we have to act from our guts and experience. What one Moderator might see as 'treading on the rules, but not enough to warrant a lock', another Moderator might deem offensive and decide to lock it.

What I'm saying is that even if hiker was to come into the Mod Forums and tell us to loosen up a bit, I don't think it would do a lot of good, because the line between legal and illegal is mostly opinion (unless it's blatantly obvious). With so many Moderators, as Sarah stated, there's a great amount of room for opinions to reign.

I know in your eyes it probably won't help a great deal, but if you see a topic that was locked unjustly, and even if you haven't even had a part in it, you're absolutely welcomed to PM an Administrator about it and they'll review it accordingly.

But your statement about who's being harmed certainly is valid, and I strongly agree with it.

In reference to Sarah's post, I also agree. Although that's something I believe we can do next to nothing about, or it would seem a bit too drastic (especially if the Administrators used the method they did for April Fools). But I unfortunately agree, and was half-serious during April Fools also.

Purez Skillz · **Posted:** April 26th, 2008, 4:46 pm

Don't speak out against the communist party

Anyway the forums are really over modded. But if the man who pays for the site wants it that way, we have no choice/say in it.

Halley92 · **Posted:** April 26th, 2008, 4:55 pm

I don't think the moderators are really over sensitizing the place, you just have to think about who you're talking to and how they are going to react when they read it.

It's a family site, it always has been - we have kids as young as 10 and below browsing this place, we do have some standards we have to keep for their sake.

Really, it's just common decency - if you don't want to think about what someone is going to think, maybe a moderator is going to have to do it for you.

But yeah, there are cases when things are done that a moderator things is right, but someone else will see as being completely unnecessary. That's life, get used to it.

Dark Paladin · **Posted:** April 26th, 2008, 5:55 pm

2 things:

Better have more mods than less mods.

Having too many mods does not harm.

Jackstick · **Posted:** April 26th, 2008, 6:45 pm

I disagree with demodding people simply because we have too many mods. However I have no problem at all with demodding inactive mods. In fact, that has been done before.

However, remember that not all of our staff users are super active.

In my opinion, we have:

8/18 active board mods

5/15 active forum mods

12/17 active chat mods

2/2 active chat admins

4/8 active forum admins

I'm not going to list names, but if you're active, you know who you are.

Christopher · **Posted:** April 27th, 2008, 3:28 am

When it comes down to it, the moderators are left to interpret what the administration (ideally hiker) deems the lines of inappropriate to be.

While these interpretations may vary between moderators, the initial sense of boundary is still there. The administration is set on keeping this site family friendly, and as such the moderators will do what they feel needs to be done to make it so - And there's much discussion behind the scenes concerning these things, in hopes to keep consistent in our enforcement. For the moderators to 'loosen up,' hiker would have to be the one to give the go-ahead, and he's stated time and time again that we are to stay "family friendly."

Expressing your views and opinions is certainly fine, as long as they're done in a family friendly manner. It's when opinions are expressed in an inappropriate way that a moderator will edit or delete a post - and it's not that we're disagreeing with your opinion, or trying to change the way you think. It's simply that the post was not within the family friendly boundaries of RuneVillage, or broke some other rule such as advertising a website.

As far as the mod to normal user ratio goes, I don't think anyone can disagree with that evident situation. Regardless, demoting moderators simply because 'we have too many' won't happen. Every moderator earned their rank for being qualified for the job. However, as Jack pointed out, inactive moderators tend to be demoted after a good period of absence.

Nate · **Posted:** April 27th, 2008, 1:25 pm

Dark Paladin wrote:

Having too many mods does not harm.

Yes it does. If 1/100 users is a mod, then the moderators demand respect and people listen to them. If 1/3 users is a mod, then the mods become just users with extra powers.

Jackstick wrote:

I disagree with demodding people simply because we have too many mods.

No-one suggested that :-s

Goten wrote:

Every moderator earned their rank for being qualified for the job.

Just because someone is a good villager, doesn't mean they should be modded. You need to consider whether having another member of staff would be beneficial to the community. I don't mod every member of my forum that helps out. I wait until the need of another moderator arises.

I know it's not a great example, but look at the official runescape forums. The user:mod ratio is about 200:1, yet there are never problems that the moderation team can't handle.

Sarah · **Posted:** April 27th, 2008, 2:17 pm

Goten wrote:

As far as the mod to normal user ratio goes, I don't think anyone can disagree with that evident situation. Regardless, demoting moderators simply because 'we have too many' won't happen. Every moderator earned their rank for being qualified for the job. However, as Jack pointed out, inactive moderators tend to be demoted after a good period of absence.

I will repeat what I said in the april fools day topic:

Quote:

Why are some people going crazy just because they lost their rank? Don't you understand this is why Hiker is making these changes?

This site was never supposed to be about the ranks you earn, the ranks never made you a better villager, remember thats what we ALL are, just villagers, regardless of any extra responsibilities some of us were trusted with we are all the same.

If you do lose your rank permanently what difference will it make? Runevillage will still be the same old community, you will still be able to interact with the same old people, thats what the site is supposed to be, just somewhere nice and relaxing where we can escape the world a while.

To be honest I felt Hiker had made too many mods and he made them for the wrong reason, even though his heart was in the right place. Correct me if I'm wrong but I feel Hiker made a lot of people mods because he felt they deserved recognition for their dedication to the site, but the truth is the recognition should come from our peers, the other users around you, even in the small way of someone saying thank you for helping them or the friendship someone offers you.

You can feel the same joy from helping someone as a normal user just the same as you did a mod, you can still offer your council and wisdom exactly the same as before which is what I know some of the mods enjoy doing. I'm sure Hiker does appreciate all the work the moderators, staff and legends have put in, just because he has come to this decision doesn't mean that he thinks any less of any of you or doesn't regard you as "important", he just feels this is something that had to be done.

The only thing is you won't be able to get rid of the bad people, which is what a moderator should be. There should only be as many mods as that are required to keep the forums a safe place for its users in all time zones, nothing more, nothing less. The phrase "too many chiefs, not enough indians" comes to mind, I know often when I have logged into the forums the online list looks like something out of josephs technicolour dreamcoat (which btw is an awesome movie if you get the one with donny osmond in) even going so far as onto some times of the day there would be more "ranked" users than normal users.

I'm quite looking forward to this new runevillage, I feel it is a change, albeit it an extreme change, for the better. However I am worried about people panicking and leaving the site, this feels like a real make or break moment for runevillage. I am sorry for those that are upset because they lost their power, but I'm happy in the knowledge that many of them will get it back, the truth is you'll probably know in your heart already if you are going to get your powers back, if you feel you probably aren't then maybe it is for the best, even though you don't care to admit it. My only advice is to stick this out and see what happens, regardless of the anger or sadness you may feel now, the villagers are great people and I wouldn't want people over-reacting to their emotions.

Hiker won't have done something extreme like this without a lot of thinking, with both his heart and his head, he built this fansite up to the one we know today so I ultimately trust his decisions regarding it.

Happy april in aussie land guys, god I can make up some sincere stuff on a roll

I coloured the important bit in red, though it is all worth a read.

bartoron · **Posted:** April 27th, 2008, 6:35 pm

The current situation is a hell of a lot better than the extreme under-modding in late 2004.

Oh man, those were good times.

Applequest · **Posted:** April 27th, 2008, 9:24 pm

Well, I cant really speak to this without seeing specific examples of what has been deleted. If you think youve had a post deleted unfairly, PM a forum admin.

Jackstick · **Posted:** April 27th, 2008, 9:37 pm

Nate wrote:

Just because someone is a good villager, doesn't mean they should be modded. You need to consider whether having another member of staff would be beneficial to the community. I don't mod every member of my forum that helps out. I wait until the need of another moderator arises.

I agree with this. There are several normal users at RV that, in my opinion, qualify for a mod position. However, we may not need them right now.

In the past, we used to mod people in HUGE bulks. Now, it's usually around 10 users every "mod season", however we do so more frequently than we did in the past. I personally would have no problem if we modded one or two users every now and then if we were running short. And if we needed more, we'd just mod another one or two. This approach is more common with chat mods. Chat mods are not added very frequently, and when there are promotions, it's usually no more than 4 or 5.

btw, mods/admins: viewtopic.php?f=224&t=423420

Rory · **Posted:** April 28th, 2008, 2:40 am

I don't think there are "trigger-happy" mods at all, they all have a reason as to why they might edit the most unneeded-to-be-edited post in the world, or if theres excessive flaming.
The staff here is fine.

Chris · **Posted:** April 28th, 2008, 12:11 pm

The mods do an awesome job and they are really uncredited for the amount of work alot of them put in. Yes, they can make mistakes but doesnt everyone? and it is easy to get it fixed if it was an error.

Ive said sorry several times after a user send me a Pm stating what they felt wasnt right about my choice of action then sometimes aftering viewing it i realised id made a mistake and quickly changed it.

All about Learning.

Overmoderation?

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