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 Post subject: Too fat to graduate?
PostPosted: December 4th, 2009, 8:44 pm 
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PHILADELPHIA (AP) ―

A Pennsylvania university's requirement that overweight undergraduates take a fitness course to receive their degrees has raised the hackles of students and the eyebrows of health and legal experts.

Officials at historically black Lincoln University said Friday that the school is simply concerned about high rates of obesity and diabetes, especially in the African-American community.

"We know we're in the midst of an obesity epidemic," said James L. DeBoy, chairman of Lincoln's department of health, physical education and recreation. "We have an obligation to address this head on, knowing full well there's going to be some fallout."

The fallout began this week on Lincoln's campus about 45 miles southwest of Philadelphia, where seniors -- the first class affected by the mandate -- began realizing their last chance to take the class would be this spring.

Tiana Lawson, a 21-year-old senior, wrote in this week's edition of The Lincolnian, the student newspaper, that she "didn't come to Lincoln to be told that my weight is not in an acceptable range. I came here to get an education."

In an interview Friday, Lawson said she has no problem with getting healthy or losing weight. But she does have a problem with larger students being singled out.

"If Lincoln truly is concerned about everyone being healthy, then everyone should have to take this gym class, not just people who happen to be bigger," she said.

The mandate, which took effect for freshmen entering in fall 2006, requires students to get tested for their body mass index, a measure of weight to height.

A normal BMI is between 18.5 and 24.9. Students with one that's 30 or above -- considered obese -- are required to take a class called "Fitness for Life," which meets three hours a week.

The course involves walking, aerobics, weight training and other physical activities, as well as information on nutrition, stress and sleep, DeBoy said.

As of this fall, DeBoy estimated about 80 seniors -- 16 percent of the class -- had not had their body mass index tested nor taken the fitness class. Some of those students will likely be exempt from taking the class once they get their BMI results, he said.

Health experts applaud the school's intent, if not its execution. Mark Rothstein, director of the bioethics institute at the University of Louisville's School of Medicine, said being forced to disclose such health information is "at least awkward and often distasteful."

And it doesn't necessarily lead to the best outcomes, he said, noting that "when the (health) goals are imposed on people, they don't do that well in meeting them."

DeBoy stressed that students are not required to lose weight or lower their BMI; they must only pass the class through attendance and participation.

"It's the sound mind and the sound body concept," DeBoy said. "I think the university, to its credit, is trying to be proactive."

Some experts said recent amendments to the Americans with Disabilities Act might lead to exemptions for morbidly obese students, who could argue that participating in the class would be dangerous.

Also, students need more than exercise, said Marcia Costello, a registered dietitian in the Philadelphia area. The university should make sure its dining halls and vending machines offer healthy choices, she said.

Costello, an assistant professor of nursing at Villanova University, also noted that body mass index can be misleading. Since muscle weighs more than fat, "it is possible to be overweight and still be physically fit," she said.

Lawson, a mass communications major, said while she believes her current BMI would exempt her from the class, she's going to take it anyway "because I would like to be healthier."

"This was a decision that I made," she wrote in The Lincolnian, "and that's the way it ought to be."


http://cbs3.com/local/Lincoln.Universit ... 24720.html

Discuss. This has gotten major attention recently, and I wanted to know what RV thought about it.

As far as my stance goes, I see nothing wrong with this. It isn't at all hard to maintain a BMI below 30, and I think that we need to start doing SOMETHING about obesity. Cancer, heart disease, and leukemia are all serious health problems and people look to the government to research cures for those, so why not start to stand against obesity? The argument that "I choose to be fat" is complete and utter BS because when your weight costs me money, you're infringing on my personal rights. (for example, an overweight person has heart problems and is on medicare, I pay taxes, I pay for medicare, their heart problems could have been avoided with exercise, and my tax dollars could have went to someone who was seriously ill and it was no fault of their own. That type of thing.) A lot of times, someone's obesity might even cause trouble for others. Someone is overweight and taking up an entire bus seat on a crowded bus, causing the little old lady who gets on to stand. You're at the theater sitting next to an overweight person and they might be breathing really heavily distracting you or they might be constantly squirming because they don't fit properly in the seat. They might be eating or drinking obnoxiously. There was that one thread here awhile ago about the news story where the guy took up 2 plane seats and was refusing to pay for the extra seat he took up.

At my university, we have to complete a basic health class as well as one health promotion class. There are dozens of choices, from bowling class to rape aggression defense to judo. In high school, we all had to take Phys Ed and in elementary everyone took gym class. I don't see how this is any different, it's just taking things a little further, and I agree with it entirely. Exercise improves your life in a hundred positive ways and I see no other reason for complaints against this class than sheer laziness. They know about the program, they can choose to attend a different school, or they can get their weight down on their own time.

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 Post subject: Re: Too fat to graduate?
PostPosted: December 4th, 2009, 9:17 pm 
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Students have no ground to stand on. They were informed that they had to take the class if they were obese, they agreed and attended the school. Time for them to man-up and do the work.

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 Post subject: Re: Too fat to graduate?
PostPosted: December 4th, 2009, 9:24 pm 
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I actually agree with you quite a bit. Granted i'm technically classed overweight yet have low body fat because I'm stocky. I'm 5'8 and weigh 180, this classes me overwieght though I could lift myself with ease.

But back on topic, I agree wholeheartedly on the fact that I'm not paying for your crappy health since you're fat. I pay way too much for myself to stay healthy and don't need your dead weight taking money that could save someone else's life who may have had a legitimate problem (an ex-marine who came home to crappy economy and is living on a salary from lowes and has a heart condition).

Sorry if that sounds blunt, but it's my damn money! It may be cynical it may be rude but if those kids are gonna take my money in the future then I'm sure as hell gonna tell them how to spend it. (slim fast instead of mcdonalds)

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 Post subject: Re: Too fat to graduate?
PostPosted: December 4th, 2009, 10:35 pm 
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As much as I hate to say it, being fat is a right in itself. As an American, if happiness to you is gorging yourself and never exercising, you have the right to pursue it. :?:

Your taxes are going to everyone who needs medical care. Yeah, it sucks that poor ethnic minorities living on welfare and obese people and other groups who are a (burden?) on society are taking advantage of the system, but that's taxes for you. You pay them anyway, you don't get to find out if you saved a desperate person's life or you allowed some hypoglycemic fat kid to have extra fluffy pillows in the ICU.

I think it's a wake up call for fat people who expect nobody to give them heat for their choice to be fat. Since they are living and attending under the college's rules, they should either take the initiative and take the course, or be fat somewhere else. If all colleges eventually adopted this practice then fat people would have no choice, but unfortunately I doubt this will ever happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Too fat to graduate?
PostPosted: December 4th, 2009, 10:45 pm 
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Landerpurex wrote:
Cancer, heart disease, and leukemia are all serious health problems and people look to the government to research cures for those, so why not start to stand against obesity?

I thought it was mostly the private sector which was driving innovation in the realm of medical cures?

Landerpurex wrote:
The argument that "I choose to be fat" is complete and utter BS because when your weight costs me money, you're infringing on my personal rights. (for example, an overweight person has heart problems and is on medicare, I pay taxes, I pay for medicare, their heart problems could have been avoided with exercise, and my tax dollars could have went to someone who was seriously ill and it was no fault of their own. That type of thing.)

Oh my. People are infringing on your personal rights because they're fat? Hmmm...

Surely the obvious solution if people are reluctant to pay for other's health care is, uh, not to have government health care? But I don't share your certainty that it's that easy to lose weight. For some people, undoubtably, but this kind of proposal casts an incredibly broad sweep over everyone who is overweight. And even if you think the government should be doing somethin about obesity, is a university the best ground to fight this battle on? Poor people are more likely to be overweight than rich people, and there is a strong reverse correlation between university degree and poverty. So this proposal could conceivably make the "obesity epidemic" worse.

Landerpurex wrote:
They might be eating or drinking obnoxiously.

And so might thin people. Way to not stereotype there.

Paidea wrote:
If all colleges eventually adopted this practice then fat people would have no choice, but unfortunately I doubt this will ever happen.

Fortunately. Otherwise, with this precedent, what is to stop colleges requiring that people give up smoking, drugs, alcohol before graduating. :|

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 Post subject: Re: Too fat to graduate?
PostPosted: December 4th, 2009, 11:02 pm 
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"Will you give up smoking?" "Yes, I promise." "Here's your diploma." *goes home that night and parties with cigarettes and booze*.

Requiring fat people to simply take a course designed to help them get into shape is not the same as requiring fat people to actually lose weight, and wouldn't set a precedent like you described.

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Bloodypurex wrote:
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Paidea wrote:
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I concur. We must lynch him now for the sake of the metagame, we MUST teach people that they can't go around claiming "anniversary" and expect leniency. Topsummoner.


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 Post subject: Re: Too fat to graduate?
PostPosted: December 5th, 2009, 12:44 am 
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Tweedy wrote:
I thought it was mostly the private sector which was driving innovation in the realm of medical cures?


I can't be sure but if they are, you'd be hard pressed to find one that didn't have some sort of grant linked to the government. At any rate, *some* government run research is going on.


Tweedy wrote:
Oh my. People are infringing on your personal rights because they're fat? Hmmm...

Surely the obvious solution if people are reluctant to pay for other's health care is, uh, not to have government health care? But I don't share your certainty that it's that easy to lose weight. For some people, undoubtably, but this kind of proposal casts an incredibly broad sweep over everyone who is overweight. And even if you think the government should be doing somethin about obesity, is a university the best ground to fight this battle on? Poor people are more likely to be overweight than rich people, and there is a strong reverse correlation between university degree and poverty. So this proposal could conceivably make the "obesity epidemic" worse.


If they'd rather complain about their own rights being violated than work out for three hours a week (an hour for three days a week), why can't I point out how they are an annoyance? There are 168 hours in a week. Three hours is about 1.8% of their total weekly time. They're getting college credit for it, and it's improving their lifestyles. I do not understand, whatsoever, what the problem is here other than (again) complete laziness. Do I personally care if they lose weight or not? Not really. But when it gets to the point where the school proposes something completely logical and people complain about it for next to no reason, it bothers me. You don't hear hordes of parents crying that elementary gym is unconstitutional, how dare they force those young kids, the future of America, to exercise!!! Nor do the parents or anyone else complain about phys ed in middle school or in high school. Why not? BECAUSE IT'S A GOOD GOD DAMN IDEA.

Anyway Tweedy, I'm about 6'1" and 160 pounds. Last I checked my BMI was 22 point something. I'm a pretty fit person, I take Judo (twice a week for 3 hours) and go to the gym once or twice a week and have a moderate workout. I'm not an athlete of any particular kind. A BMI of 30 is pretty significant. That's not just "healthy" or "big boned" or "pleasantly fluffy". It's obese, and odds are, it's the kids' fault. From the sounds of things, the activities in the class aren't at all rigorous. The article says "The course involves walking, aerobics, weight training and other physical activities, as well as information on nutrition, stress and sleep." Also, it said that they didn't even have to lose weight or lower their BMI, they simply had to attend the class and participate. The school just wants them to be more aware and to probably learn healthy things they can do on their own without much of a hassle. I can agree with the girl in the article when she says that everyone should take the class, not just overweight people. But then, there isn't any real reason to waste the time of someone who's already physically fit, so meh.

The bottom line is this: If they can't lower their BMI or keep it below 30 over the course of 4 years on their own by taking the stairs instead of the elevator or eating a salad instead of a cheeseburger, then they can take option number 2 and attend a different school or transfer from Lincoln after a time. It may be the right of the students to be fat, but it's the right of the university to choose the curriculum as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Too fat to graduate?
PostPosted: December 5th, 2009, 1:07 am 
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I think part of not working out among fat people, could have to do with self-consciousness. Think about it, how many times have you been at a gym, and saw an obese person, and laughed and cracked jokes while they're trying to do something about their weight? They'd rather just eat themselves to death, then go through any teasing from people that don't even know them. Anyway, back on topic- I think this has it's good and bad points. Yes they're getting healthy, but you don't got to college to get healthy, you go to get a degree in a special area of interest. I wouldn't mind seeing this happen, I guess. My college already requires a Wellness Lab and Discussion course.

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 Post subject: Re: Too fat to graduate?
PostPosted: December 5th, 2009, 1:16 am 
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What ever happened to personal responsibility? I work out because I enjoy it. I would never want to force something I enjoy upon someone else. . . it may drive them to hate it.

If you don't want to pay for someone's health care. . . don't support big government politics Then no one's rights will be infringed on. That's the core issue. . .

You want to force people to do what YOU think is right. That's unacceptable and infringes on rights. What you think is right, I think is wrong, however, if we each get to decide what to do with our own bodies and neither of us are paying for each others health care, I see no problem.

We know that minorities have a harder time passing college and being overweight. Forcing all students to maintain a certain weight ON TOP of the statistics already stacked against minorities will certainly end up in you paying more insurance in the long run due to poverty in poor demographic groups.

Your idea is certainly not good for fighting poverty, obesity, or encouraging education.

Obesity is a disease and a mental disorder. People become physically and mentally addicted to food. So realistically you'd attempt to kill the illness without actually solving the core issue. Do you know WHY people become obese? There are many reasons. . . until you solve them you can't kill obesity in the USA.

We can of course kill obesity with a liberal government. . . . or try. The funny thing is. . . the groups that are MORE likely to receive funding from the socialist programs happen to be the most obese. It's a very interesting correlation.

People need to freaking liberate them selves from what other people tell them is right. The government or a university has NO right to tell me what is right for me. Then again, I go to a college that allows each person to be their own person. . . . it's nice there are colleges and people who still stand up for individuality.

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 Post subject: Re: Too fat to graduate?
PostPosted: December 5th, 2009, 2:19 am 
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Let's cut the crap. It isn't about anyone's rights, it's about semantics and hiding behind your interpretation of the constitution so that you can get out of something. It happens every day in court, and it's happening more and more frequently out in the world.

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 Post subject: Re: Too fat to graduate?
PostPosted: December 5th, 2009, 4:53 am 
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I merely find such a requirement to be superfluous, for in the western world, when does the common man actually ever have to work where a fit body is required anymore?

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 Post subject: Re: Too fat to graduate?
PostPosted: December 5th, 2009, 9:02 am 
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Landerpurex wrote:
If they'd rather complain about their own rights being violated than work out for three hours a week (an hour for three days a week), why can't I point out how they are an annoyance? There are 168 hours in a week. Three hours is about 1.8% of their total weekly time. They're getting college credit for it, and it's improving their lifestyles. I do not understand, whatsoever, what the problem is here other than (again) complete laziness. Do I personally care if they lose weight or not? Not really. But when it gets to the point where the school proposes something completely logical and people complain about it for next to no reason, it bothers me. You don't hear hordes of parents crying that elementary gym is unconstitutional, how dare they force those young kids, the future of America, to exercise!!! Nor do the parents or anyone else complain about phys ed in middle school or in high school. Why not? BECAUSE IT'S A GOOD GOD DAMN IDEA.

That's because schools educate children. What is reasonable to impose upon a child sounds ridiculous when imposed on an adult. Maybe they're lazy...maybe they have some genetic predisposition which makes it difficult for them to lose weight...maybe they're addicted...maybe they're too embarrassed to do anything as Tanks astutely noted. Whatever the reason, universities should focus on giving their students an education, not on attempting to impose a new lifestyle on them.

Landerpurex wrote:
It's obese, and odds are, it's the kids' fault.

Well if it's the person's fault, then it's their responsibility to fix that fault, not have a university arbitrarily deciding they are too overweight to graduate without being told how to lose weight. What an insult to anybody's intelligence.

Landerpurex wrote:
It isn't about anyone's rights

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Look, I think it'd be grand if less people were obese/overweight, but I don't want bureaucrats forcing people to lose weight. Maybe people value food more than the ability to exercise? It'd sound ridiculous to most people (me included) but that's their choice and who are you to tell other people how to live?

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 Post subject: Re: Too fat to graduate?
PostPosted: December 5th, 2009, 12:05 pm 
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Eadwulf wrote:
I merely find such a requirement to be superfluous, for in the western world, when does the common man actually ever have to work where a fit body is required anymore?

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 Post subject: Re: Too fat to graduate?
PostPosted: December 5th, 2009, 12:43 pm 
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Landerpurex wrote:
Let's cut the crap. It isn't about anyone's rights, it's about semantics and hiding behind your interpretation of the constitution so that you can get out of something. It happens every day in court, and it's happening more and more frequently out in the world.


lol, riiiiight. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Dude use some common sense.

Quote:
It'd sound ridiculous to most people (me included) but that's their choice and who are you to tell other people how to live?


Wait a minute, the government's job is to babysit you and spoon feed you. You have no rights! Lander KNOWS what is right for you. . . . wait, no. . . what happens when WE know what is right for him and gain political power and force our hypothetical views upon him? It would totally become a rights issue.

:awesome: :awesome: :awesome: :awesome: :awesome: :awesome: :awesome: :awesome: :awesome: :awesome: :awesome:

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 Post subject: Re: Too fat to graduate?
PostPosted: December 6th, 2009, 6:47 am 
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Chet wrote:
Eadwulf wrote:
I merely find such a requirement to be superfluous, for in the western world, when does the common man actually ever have to work where a fit body is required anymore?

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Yes, and what about that says "work" to you?

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 Post subject: Re: Too fat to graduate?
PostPosted: December 6th, 2009, 12:10 pm 
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What about it doesn't say work to you?

Lol your question sounds just as good in reverse. . . . that's never a good thing :)

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 Post subject: Re: Too fat to graduate?
PostPosted: December 7th, 2009, 8:03 am 
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Eadwulf wrote:
Chet wrote:
Eadwulf wrote:
I merely find such a requirement to be superfluous, for in the western world, when does the common man actually ever have to work where a fit body is required anymore?

Image


Yes, and what about that says "work" to you?

I was just being the cynical counterpoint. And you'd be surprised all that happens in that industry. I know a couple girls in it and I have *no* idea how they deal with the pressure.

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 Post subject: Re: Too fat to graduate?
PostPosted: December 7th, 2009, 12:39 pm 
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Chet wrote:
Eadwulf wrote:
Chet wrote:
Eadwulf wrote:
I merely find such a requirement to be superfluous, for in the western world, when does the common man actually ever have to work where a fit body is required anymore?

Image


Yes, and what about that says "work" to you?

I was just being the cynical counterpoint. And you'd be surprised all that happens in that industry. I know a couple girls in it and I have *no* idea how they deal with the pressure.


Because they're told to.

You can't be the cynical response! That's my shtick!

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 Post subject: Re: Too fat to graduate?
PostPosted: December 7th, 2009, 1:39 pm 
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Eadwulf wrote:
You can't be the cynical response! That's my shtick!

It's like dividing by zero :weird:

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 Post subject: Re: Too fat to graduate?
PostPosted: December 7th, 2009, 4:59 pm 
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Donor: Guardian (2009)
I'm not as concerned with the rights of being fat as I am with the choice some people have.

You won't find a single fat person who's not resistant to insulin. You won't find a single fat person who has a hummingbird metabolism like mine. You WILL find a split between these people, though, on whether it's more genetic, or more self-induced.

People who will become obese no matter what they eat or how they work out shouldn't be subject to being told "You're fat for bad habits". Yes, they can work to better themselves, but can only really do so by going against their own DNA.

With that single point of genetics vs choice aside and a false hope that someone somewhere will read this post and realize "We need to sort through the people who are unlucky and the people who are choosing this", I don't see this as a bad idea. Teach kids (and people in general) why they gain weight, teach kids (and people in general) what they can do about it, and by all means, don't shove it down their throats that they have to be some stick-thin magazine-cover bodied people. While this isn't the intention of many people, it's the message portrayed. >_>

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