I stand by this statement. Since your thesis revolves around the constitution, I'm probably outmatched in any debate on the matter.



'All issues of this nature' is a bit too inclusive. You can't compare the issue of gay marriage to gender rights or civil rights, African Americans and women were discriminated against far, far more than gays currently are. Gay people have every other right but marriage to a person of the same sex. And many states are starting to allow them that right, as well they should be. But there are other states, states where the vast majority of people may feel a bit more strongly about anti-gay marriage. Should they be forced to allow it? Are they being represented accurately?

Is marriage an unalienable right, like those on the bill of rights? Is it or should it be a constitutional issue? These are the questions I struggle with.

I don't think the federal government needs to legislate it in this instance. It's divisive? It's divisive in the senate and house, so it's a divisive issue regardless.

And the SC doesn't make laws or legislatures, they pass judgment on a case by case basis and set precedents. Precedents that may strongly influence legislature, but it isn't legislature. Anyways, marriage is a civil matter and has nothing to do with a criminal court.

I'm only playing Devil's advocate in specific terms to gay marriage, I really, really don't care one way or another. If it was something that was on the ballot, I would leave it blank.

But I do believe that the federal government shouldn't legislate it.

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When I say 'legislated for' I meant 'accounted for' rather than the political term 'to pass law', apologies for that (obviously the SC doesn't make laws, it only passes legal judgement).

I concede that 'all of issues of this nature' was an incredibly loose umbrella term for a range of rights. Would you concede that the civil rights act ('64) was right to be passed at the federal level? Or do you not think any kind of civil rights should be legislated for nationally?

Historically speaking, many of the founders would have had your back on this issue, hence the 10th amendment. That being said, Madison had conceded this point in the Constitutional Convention as a price of agreement over the functioning of the federal government. If he could have had his way there would exist the ability of the national government to use the 'federal negative' (veto)on all laws enacted by the States, irrespective of the character of those laws.

In that sense, Madison and many other federalists saw the potential for the states (particularly the South in the case of slavery) to use states rights to protect laws and practices that straddled the ethical grey area.

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Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, our unalienable rights. You can make the case that marriage falls under all three categories. Obviously gay marriage isn't on the same level as slavery or Jim Crow laws, but it is still one group of people denying the rights that they enjoy to another group. Its a rights issue, and like the rights issues before it needs to be handled at the Federal level, otherwise some of the slower-adapting states will just kick the can down the road and avoid changing until they are shamed into it. There is no need to go down that road when it can be avoided. Its not good for anyone.

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By the precedent set by Loving v. Virgina, though, marriage is to be regulated, at least in part, on the federal level. A handful of states still have anti-interracial marriage laws on the books; they just don't (and can't) enforce them. Applequest put it quite well; civil rights issues are never going to be solved if we leave them up to the states. I'm pretty sure we'd still have Jim Crow laws in one state or another if the federal government hadn't stepped in.

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Tahu 1000 - Former Member

I don't typically have a lot I want to say in this forum that isn't some sort of rage filled essay (hence why I don't post here), but I do want to say this:

Last night I attended a gay wedding. The couple chose to be married on their 20 year anniversary, and it was one of the nicest weddings I've ever attended. It was a standard ceremony, kids were there, and it wasn't any different than a "straight wedding". It had one of the best receptions I've ever attended after the short ceremony, and it was as much a celebration of the fact they could finally be "legally" recognized as a married couple as it was a celebration of their union.

I am honored to have attended, and proud to have gay marriage legal in this state.

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>Marriage
>Happiness

No.

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You married?

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You know I'm not, and that I'm being sarcastic.

However marriage has nothing to do with happiness.

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Not directly, but civil marriage does grant some major rights. Spouses are often covered under each others' health insurance, for example. One of the results of DOMA being overturned is that gay couples with one member in the military now grant the other the same rights and privileges any other military spouse would get. From how taxes are paid to membership at fitness clubs, marriage is woven into rules and laws across the nation. Marriage represents a disparate set of rights and privileges, most unique to it.

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Tahu 1000 - Former Member

Gay marriage should be legal in every country

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There is a village, which is hidden in the shadow of a mountain.
Everybody is suffering from a lack of light.
One day, the eldest of this village leaves for the mountain with a teaspoon in his hands.
The others ask him what he intends to do.
He replies that he is going to move the mountain.
"But you will never succeed!" they cry out.
"No, i will never succeed, but somebody has to start."

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Kikori wrote:

Runevillage the forum is pretty well much done. Runevillage the group will eventually die, but as long as we're still friends with each other in the end, it's still a pretty big thought in our heads. Runevillage the family is forever, no matter where we settle down. If absolutely nothing else ever comes of Runevillage in the future, that alone is a pretty damn awesome thought.

The state should have as much say so in marriage as it needs in what drugs you can put into your body? 0 our life they control too much..

Drug use is a choice. People choose to try drugs, and people choose to buy drugs. Being gay isn't a choice, and as such, should never be illegal in the first place.

I can understand why certain drugs are illegal. Cocaine, Heroin, and many other addictive or otherwise damaging "hard" drugs should rightly be regulated. Maybe not made illegal for personal use, but certainly made illegal for intent to supply.

Other, "softer" drugs like weed should be completely legalised and taxed. I'd rather £10 of my £20 went to funding schools and hospitals than lining my dealers gold-plated yacht.

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There is a village, which is hidden in the shadow of a mountain.
Everybody is suffering from a lack of light.
One day, the eldest of this village leaves for the mountain with a teaspoon in his hands.
The others ask him what he intends to do.
He replies that he is going to move the mountain.
"But you will never succeed!" they cry out.
"No, i will never succeed, but somebody has to start."

~~~The Wising Up Song - Misty's Big Adventure

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Kikori wrote:

Runevillage the forum is pretty well much done. Runevillage the group will eventually die, but as long as we're still friends with each other in the end, it's still a pretty big thought in our heads. Runevillage the family is forever, no matter where we settle down. If absolutely nothing else ever comes of Runevillage in the future, that alone is a pretty damn awesome thought.

Glad to finally see this debate over.

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I now expect all to see goats marrying toasters soon like all the slippery slopers convinced me would happen!

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Nice timing on the necro. I really don't mind that, though. Supreme court's decision now affects all states, and it can't be reversed? Since in some places, it was legalized and then it changed back.

It can be reversed, would not be easy or likely though.

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The Fourteenth Amendment clearly states:

"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

This is that. It is comforting to know that we have the federal government who can step in to drag some of our more backwards neighbors into present times. Hell, we are only 50 years removed from a supreme court decision legalizing interracial marriage nationally. Needless to say it is the same types of people in the same areas of the country who were against that back then that are against this now. Its also guaranteed that in another 50 years, this will be looked back upon in the same way. Some people will always be against change, but change usually tends to be for the better.

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When it's change driven by people who want something, I'd agree. I'd say it's worse when people let others decide for them what's to be changed.
In this case, I'm definitely glad people pushed for what they wanted.

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About damned time. I say, repeating the same phrase I've used every time I hear about a country that comes to it senses about this one, single gay rights issue...

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