I'd say you're a pretty bad example of a libertarian, Lander.

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I marched in the 2007 Rose Parade. YEAH, WOO!
Trumpets: The Instruments of Kings... The Kings of Instruments.

*shrugs*

I have some libertarian tendencies, some conservative tendencies, and some democratic/liberal ones. I guess you could call it common sense.

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Was just clarifying


I am very libertarian, and this is why I wouldn't/don't mind paying taxes. It's easy to bash the government for military expenditure (lemme tell you how I feel about that)/bailouts/etc., but local government is responsible for municipal infrastructure, and 99% of the time they're damn good at it and it's absurd to consider abolishing that, especially considering the huge paradigm shift from public to private ownership that would destroy most of the existing systems.

Again, I'm totally a don't-let-the-man-get-you-down kind of guy, but I'm also extremely pragmatic, which is the central tenet of modern libertarianism.

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Somebody mentioned college majors earlier. I'd bet if you did a poll of these protests, you'd find a lot of useless degrees honestly.

France ran into this kind of situation times 1000. They made college free for everyone. So what's everyone do? Major in Philosophy, History, Sociology elf magic, etc. then believe themselves too skilled to work a part time job.

That's about what would happen if you forgave student loans for anyone or made college just totally public. It doesn't mean everyone is going to get a useful degree, it just means people will get some random degree that's easy.

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I'm noticing that there's a straw man argument being put up against libertarianism by some of you. Keep in mind that libertarianism is not the same as anarchism. Anarchists want no government. Libertarians want very limited government compared to what we have today. This means that the government should recognize what are and what are not its problems and what it can and cannot handle.

Of course, there are some services the government is to provide, and those vary as per the concepts of federalism. For instance, the federal government (as in the government at the national level) funding the nation's military is fine. Is there still waste? You bet there is. In fact, I challenge you to look at any federally mandated program and find where there is not a slew of waste problems. Will they fix the problems any time soon? Probably not; why should they fix anything? If you say you're going to look into the effectiveness of the military's spending, you will get all sorts of right-wingers and news pundits blowing it out of proportion and making everyone panic over our military's budget possibly (definitely, if they do it right) getting some spending cuts here and there. On the other side, if you even mention looking at how any kind of welfare, education, or other domestic program spends its money, the left will go nuts with news pundits making havoc again. In short, the politicians can't win (and can't keep their jobs) if they actually be responsible, so the government stays broken.

Also, don't forget that taxing and spending are not the only things the government needs to take a look at. The government is uglier than you want to think, and it wishes to exert wider and more powerful control. Let's look at the EPA. "But Snake," you gasp, "the EPA is protecting our ENVIRONMENT!" Oh, yes, of course. So, why then do leftist interest groups (including the Obama administration) use the EPA to get around Congress? The Cap and Trade idea didn't make it through Congress, so the EPA is another way to get the underlying objective done.

Let's use an example involving the great state of Texas. I can tell you the EPA needs to stay out of Texas issues, especially when they decided to include Texas in their recent abomination, the "Cross State Air Pollution Rule". Oh, but don't we have a healthy sector in our economy in energy production? Don't we have a pretty healthy industrial sector? Aren't we business-friendly and an at-will state, which happens to defy Obama's ridiculous onslaught on much of the entire nation's private sector that doesn't support Obama (like much of Wall Street does/did)? The answers to all of those questions are "yes".

Incidentally, Texas was not originally in the scope of the EPA's new rule. We were added on last minute, particularly when our governor was looking like a possible contender in the presidential race. You can't tell me that when other states get a few years to prepare for the CSAPR, we should get 90 days. It doesn't work that way in the middle of a dry, hot, Texas summer (with a catastrophic drought, to boot). Were it left unchallenged, the rule would have caused blackouts, for example, as power plants are forced to shut down, lower capacity significantly, or face massive fines. Oh, but the EPA is an ultimate force of good, right? We Texans challenging the EPA are just horrible people who hate the environment and want to pollute. In fact, the EPA recently rolled back its absurd rule, stating that it had "incorrect data" on Texas's emissions. Nope, no politics going on here when you're potentially ruining people's standards of living by trying to raise energy prices astronomically and create blackouts.

What else? Don't forget that many on Wall Street support Democrats. What? That sounds absurd? Think about it: if you wanted to maintain your place at the top of the food chain, why wouldn't government policies be a place to go to? For that matter, which party is more likely to intervene in the economy, Democrats or Republicans? It happens all the time. Heck, Goldman Sachs was contributing big time to the Obama administration when the same administration was grilling them a couple years ago when this financial crisis started.

In short, decisions made for the entire United States are usually asinine when they involve people, businesses, and career politicians. The government has no motivation to solve its problems, whereas a business must adapt or die. Do you really need more evidence to decide that trusting the government with more money and more control is a good thing? Keep the government's grubby hands out of things, and let the proper people control their domains.

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I marched in the 2007 Rose Parade. YEAH, WOO!
Trumpets: The Instruments of Kings... The Kings of Instruments.

At least we can all agree on this:



bartoron

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That's DOCTOR zoidberg to you.

And I'm pretty sure all this protesting isn't going to get them as far as working will

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I believe, is a rare kind of happiness"

The amazing hi priced electronic stuff that's getting stolen isn't amazing. you will almost never find a protest in the u.s. without the middle class as a majority.

If you're DEBATING at all you must be for a classic education. Getting a tech education is like training only in smithing. You got an uber game character? Level up your life.


I pay around 40% because I am self-employed. My lawyer pays under 20% cause he knows how to redistribute (hide) his money in a perfectly legal way. The people he used to work for payed around 7% income tax, they were multi billionaires.

40%?????!!!!! That's bull !! They don't need that much. Greedy people. Your the one working for your money. You should be able to keep it.

...This makes want to check my next pay stub to see how much I pay.

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You probably pay much less-- i'm self employed, so i have no pay stubs, and i pay more-- cause i'm self employed.

if you get a pay check you get that stuff taken out automatically.

not sure what the reasoning is on more taxes for self employed, never bothered to look into it.

true.
and they arent kind about it. they have taken $1000 away from me before :S
they are not my friends.

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To go with the HUGEGIANTPICTURE here, none of them should be protesting in the first place.

"Oh I hold up a piece of paper with my whole life's sob story. I am the 99%." AAAAAA- shut up!
The people who are in the 99% are middle-class, working Americans, like accountants, electricians, teachers, etc. They make >35k a year, with <35k being considered "poverty". The 1% make up those Americans who earn ~>$250k a year, like über-professional doctors, lawyers, and capitalist bigwigs.
(I guess this was to clarify)

But compared to the rest of the world, Americans are the 1%. Making 35k a year would be a nothing but a dream for the Korean boys who spend 12 hours a day manufacturing Nike shoes for a NICKEL. Or the African girl who walks 2 miles to gather a pot of water back for her tribe so she won't DIE. No American (and anyone reading this :P ) could even begin to fathom what "poor" is. I sure don't.
Yet as much as I don't want to, I do want to experience it firsthand. Just to know what it's like on the other side of the spectrum, just to travel to Hati on some missionary trip or something...

Too much of this stuff is taken for granted. Is governmental corruption wrong? Yes. Should we do something about it? Perhaps. Is it right to compare? No.

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Awesome

I agree with your post in its entirety, except for this. Some of us, myself included, know what being poor is. I have went hungry, knowing there was nothing to eat in the house and guessing at when my next meal would be. I have been homeless. I have froze in my house during a Michigan winter because we could not put propane in our tank. Our water and electricity were shut off countless times. I have had to use the same clothes for years growing up. I have begged for things out of necessity like a goddamn hobo. 99% of this was the fault of my neglectful, mentally unstable mother but she gathered far less than $1000 a month in disability, which was our ONLY income. I think that qualifies as poor, but you're right. In other countries that would pass for a year's livable salary. I know other villagers have had some similar hardships as well.

We shouldn't, on the whole, be compared to a third world country because they do indeed have it far worse than us. I certainly don't mean to throw a pity party for myself, I have all my necessities now and more, all I am saying is this: please do not assume that we don't know what being poor is. Your point is clear and valid as well, however. But there is real poverty in America, we just just hardly see it because we choose not to. We are more preoccupied with poverty elsewhere.

At least that Korean kid has a job.

But no, child labor disgusts me.

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