Penguin, you will have to change your mind about tennis if he is the other extender. Cause when I flip town that should confirm him.

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If (which I doubt) you flip town, that would mean I am incorrect about extender being mafia, and MPH being town. However, I very much doubt there would be a town role, whose role can only be used to the harm of the town, and is forced into using said role. That I find hard to believe.

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Well, that makes my task of convincing you very difficult.

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This post here?



Yes. It's because I have no reason to trust you over the host. I think you're lying to throw us off, to make it look like you're the victim of an incriminating attack, to indirectly imply your innocence.

And if you're telling the truth, then why was this only a one-time occurrence? Why hasn't the List Shuffler (or whatever we're calling it) struck again?




That's not a logical hole. Calling it a logical hole implies that there is a readily apparent inconsistency in the things I've said. Can you point out where that is? You're proposing an unlikely scenario and using that to make me look guilty. That's gotta be some sort of argumentative fallacy.



Let me point out again that the game began with 5 MPHs and 2 Extenders. It's the same ratio typically found between Villagers and Mafia. MPHs help the Town uncover truths, and Extenders only serve to slow us down. Two MPHs have died, and they were both Villagers. Yet some of you are still trying to convince yourselves that a claimed (and undisputed) MPH is more guilty than a claimed Extender. Market Man6 has claimed a role that is directly hurting the Town!

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You mean like night 2?
[quote="market”]The effect of the extender on me was to add henry to my list, as I had chosen my 6 people to be: target apple, list aragorn, rex, jack, sparky, tennis.[/quote]
On N2 sparky and tennis were replaced with penguin and rory.



For N3 there has to be someone who had their list altered!

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You said:

'

That last bolded sentence is an inconsistency. It is not a fact, because there is a chance of a mafia MPH. If there is a mafia MPH, nobody is going to step in here and claim. I agree if we knew for a fact there wasnt a mafia MPH, your logic would be sound, and I would remove my vote. We don't know that, so Im sticking with it.

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I'm starting to think that the Extender being a mafia is becoming more likely. It serves well, really no purpose to the town. I think they exist to cause confusion, and it makes eliminating decoys and pinpointing targeted people more difficult.


Market Man6

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being a mafia role*

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At this point I am fairly certain that the mafia are Market, Godders, Tennis Ace, and Ex Rex. Market and Ex Rex are the two extenders, Godders the muter, and Tennis Ace the God father. Three of them have been acting scummy, and Ex Rex hasn't said a word (though that is normal). I do not think the town would have roles that help the mafia, or the mafia roles that help the town. I unfortunately think the town might be in checkmate; even if Applequest changes and votes for Market, we will be stuck at 4 against 5, with the last man mute. It's too bad mutes can't even vote.

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I'm a little unsure about Market Man's extender role claim, i know it exists but it seems so much of a hindrance that even if it was a town role that it should be removed from the game.
Personally though i do believe Market Man to almost certainly be Mafia.



I can't be the muter, because i vote for Topsummoner night 3, and the only person who voted for all 3 night kills was Jackstick.

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There are 10 types of people in the world, the ones that understand binary, and the ones that don't.

Thanks Lou for the help with the avatar.

Ugh the Godfather? Seriously?? I've only voted Gainst the Nightkill one time.

Fine, I will agree with all of you and go against my own intuition to prove my own innocence.

unvote and I will change my vote to Market Man. If Market is innocent, I will slaughter a bull for these awful assumptions. I will eat my words though if you all are right.

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Ooh ooh ah ah!

Market Man6 racked up the required 6 votes in the latter half of the day and was led to the gallows. At long last, the truth about his allegiance would come to light.

He was hanged, and the Villagers promptly rushed to his home. But nothing sinister of any sort awaited them there.

Market Man6 - Extender - Lynched Day 4

Night 4 has begun

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.Legendary themed months are back! Maybe.

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Eight villagers arrived in the town square the next morning. Predictably, it appeared that Topsummoner could speak again, and that Ex Rex had inherited his curse for the day.

The Villagers headed to the house of the missing PenguinGuy, already assuming the worst. And their fears were confirmed--not only had PenguinGuy been slain in the night by the Mafia, but the Mafia had apparently figured out how to turn the tables on the Villagers' deductive reasoning, and target the power players in the town. PenguinGuy's stethoscope rested on his bedside stand, never to be used again.

PenguinGuy - Doctor - Slain Night 4

The remaining eight reconvened at the bulletin board in the middle of town and studied the lists. Applequest spoke up first. "Jackstick picked the Mafia nightkill target AGAIN, so obviously our only course of action is to ly--HURGHAHF"

Topsummoner withdrew his dagger from Applequest's back, who collapsed on the ground with a final blood-spattered choke. The other three Mafia members did the same to the remaining Villagers, leaving only the four Mafiosos alive. "FLAWLESS VICTORY", Rory exclaimed. Topsummoner nodded. "Yeah. Thank god Frank wasn't in this game."

~~~

Applequest - Magic Pen Holder - Slain Day 5
Dr Henry - Magic Pen Holder - Slain Day 5
Ex Rex - Extender - Slain Day 5
Jackstick - Magic Pen Holder - Slain Day 5
Godders - Mafia member - Triumphed
Rory - Mafia member - Triumphed
Tennis Ace - Mafia member - Triumphed
Topsummoner - Mafia member - Triumphed
(defeat the Jester wins too I guess)

~~~

Well that was a neat experiment, but it didn't work out nearly as well as I had hoped! The town was pretty overpowered in my opinion, but still never managed to nail a single Mafia. Lynching Jackstick would've been even worse. Here are my thoughts on the game, including how things could have worked out differently:

• The Mafia had four roles per night and could swap at will. This makes sense--if someone is designated to do the nightkills and then dies, their roles are going to get switched around anyway and then things are really confusing for all concerned. Tennis Ace even pointed this out when he mentioned there wasn't a single Mafia muter.
• On a minor note to the above, I don't do Godfather roles (I don't like Detectives being unable to rely on their investigations) and even given that the town was too overpowered to have a backup doctor like Godders claimed to be, my backup doctor role is always called Medical Student, not Nurse. Obviously those are host-based decisions that I can't expect everyone to know or assume, but they've generally always been true.
• The deductive reasoning lists were supposed to be a supplement to the normal game, not a replacement. Godders was rolefishing and fake-claiming all over the place, and only Dr Henry seemed to be on his trail. Jackstick made some great posts (such as this one where 2 of 3 suggested muters were Mafia) and was actively trying to deduce things, not something a Mafioso would willingly do--because the longer the game goes on, the more data there is, so in this game, no Mafia members would want to get each other killed. Case in point--did no one notice that Topsummoner never made any similar deductions? He's the guy I'd expect them to come from the most.
  
  The Mafia did a bang-up job of nailing the Detective and Doctor back-to-back based on what they could deduce from the lists, though. Kudos.
• Yes, Extender was a Village-aligned role. Why wouldn't it be? It didn't do anything sinister. In fact, one of its effects was to protect Villagers. When Godders' list was extended to eight people the second day, the reliability of finding his target went way down. Granted, using it on a Mafia member would not be the best case scenario, but sometimes you don't want someone's role deduced. You don't want to call out the Detective or Doctor by accident, because then the Mafia have just learned who their next nightkill is going to be. The Extenders had the secondary responsibility of attempting to avoid extending people who were under scrutiny.
• The Magic Pen Holders marked out names on peoples' lists. The Extenders added to the lists. Neither of these roles did anything sinister. No, those roles were reserved for the remaining two Mafia members, who implemented Decoy Changes. Each night, two peoples' lists had two decoy selections permanently erased and replaced with two other randomly-selected names, trying to implicate people who probably weren't going to choose certain targets. This was about as evil as you can get as far as list manipulation goes. The problem is, no one but Market Man picked up on it, and even then, it wasn't even discussed! (I'm really not sure why no one thought to consider what the two remaining Mafia members were doing every single night.) Market Man requested that everyone review their lists on Day 2, but his pleas fell on deaf ears as these were the lists that were modified:
  
  • Market Man6 (Night 1)
  • Aragorn Ix (Night 1)
  • Dr Henry (Night 2)
  • Market Man6 (Night 2)
  • Applequest (Night 3)
  • Ex Rex (Night 3)

I compiled a list just now of all the actions and possible perpetrators in the below spoiler tag:

It looks like even knowing about the Decoy Changers, nothing came down to 100% certainty after all because Jackstick, Market, and Ex Rex suck too much at not targeting people the Mafia targeted! But it DID give major starting points. Like if anyone had listened to Market Man about his list being modified on Night 1, the possible offenders were Applequest, Ex Rex, and Godders. Who of those three would you lynch? Similarly, 2 of the 4 people who could have muted Applequest Night 2 were Mafia, but the Mafia were able to keep the pressure on Market Man6 and avoid being targeted. If I were to do it over and knew then what I know now, I think the lists would have 5 names instead of 6, and Decoy Changers would replace three names instead of two.

Regardless, thank you to everyone for participating! You all got your night PMs in real fast when I appreciate, and everyone kept things real civil which is even better. I'm sorry it didn't work out to be that interesting, but really, the Mafia played rather spectacularly so I guess changing the balance wouldn't have had that much of an effect on the outcome anyway. I'm glad I finally got to test out this variant with a bunch of active and awesome folks.

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.Legendary themed months are back! Maybe.

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Good game, Jaron.

I agree the Village could have steamrolled if they had been able to lynch a Mafia member just because list analyzing could have gone into overdrive. *cough cough Nurse roleclaim* The one advantage we, as Mafia Members had, was that knowing our own four roles, it was easy to deduce who were the Magic Pen Holders, Extenders, and the two odd men out (Aragorn and PenguinGuy). Although knowing the most powerful roles wouldn't have mattered had the town lynched Godders two rounds ago and then whittled it down to the other three of us after that.

WHY nobody but Market Man came forward about their list being changed is absolutely beyond me. Beyond me.

For what it's worth, my actions were:
Night 1: Decoy changed Aragorn
Night 2: Killed Sparky
Night 3: Decoy changed Ex Rex
Night 4: Muted Ex Rex

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Ooh ooh ah ah!

Also, my biggest fear around Day 3 (I believe) was the notion that the Villagers could all easily roleclaim (and the lists would help prove actions). All it would have taken were a few more people (especially Ex Rex and his Extender role...), and the Mafia would have at least all had four huge targets.

One thing that confused me was I swear in one of Market Man's posts on page 5, he claimed that his actual target was changed. With that being said, I thought that Penguin Guy perhaps had a huge powerful role that would change the real target (rather than the decoy), which could've ended up with Mafiosos killing themselves.

Market Man's post in full

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Ooh ooh ah ah!

Sorry guys, I was way too busy to be playing this game. This wouldve been a fun one to really sit down and try to study, but all I had time for was reading through the posts once and voting for Jackstick lol.

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Also I think its worth noting that while it now seems obvious what the town couldve/shouldve done with the lists, hindsight is always 20/20. In the moment things were very confusing. Perhaps nobody on the team put in enough effort to try to sort through the puzzle, but if it was obvious Im sure someone wouldve seen it.

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For anyone who's interested:
Night 1: Killed Sighence
Night 2: Decoy changed MM6
Night 3: Muted Topsummoner

I was surprised I didn't get a lot of suspicion, I suppose the real danger would've been if the MPHs actually crossed out my entire list Night 2.

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Very interesting setup. I can't believe I totally predicted the Jester thing and fell for it anyways >_>

I picked basically the same group of people for my list every night, only changing when one of them died. I'm not really sure why I did this, but damn it felt strategic at the time.

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Feel free to add me on Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/Topsummoner

Join us at the RV Discord Channel: https://discord.gg/DgtPWPM

Yeah, as soon as Defeat made that reply to my post, I was pretty sure he was Jester. I probably should've said something.

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